do you think those who follow christus victor are condemned?

Author: linate ,

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  • Swagnarok
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    Swagnarok
    Love conquers death? What does that even mean? Is death (the breakdown of order and expenditure of finite energy stores in the Universe, on the microcosmic level of the breakdown of the human body to the point of total non-operability) a cosmic force that was introduced as a result of man's fall? Is that the big problem? And not the sinful nature of man (which in my opinion was simply exemplified by, rather than caused by, the Fall)? But if sin was the cause of death, then wouldn't the continued existence of sin mean a continuation of death as a natural consequence of such?

    A better way of putting it would be "love conquered sin" imo.
  • PGA2.0
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    --> @Swagnarok
    Love conquers death? What does that even mean? Is death (the breakdown of order and expenditure of finite energy stores in the Universe, on the microcosmic level of the breakdown of the human body to the point of total non-operability) a cosmic force that was introduced as a result of man's fall? Is that the big problem? And not the sinful nature of man (which in my opinion was simply exemplified by, rather than caused by, the Fall)? But if sin was the cause of death, then wouldn't the continued existence of sin mean a continuation of death as a natural consequence of such?

    A better way of putting it would be "love conquered sin" imo.


    I don't know who you are addressing.

    Love conquers death means,  16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

    Love conquers sin too! What death are you speaking of, physical death or spiritual death? When Adam sinned in the Garden that very day God told him he would die. He died spiritually to God. God is Spirit. The death Adam died was a separation from God. He was barred from the Garden that very day and no longer "walked" with God in the Garden. Adam was not allowed to eat of the tree of life and live forever either. That tree too was in the Garden.

    Jesus came to reconcile us to God. So those who are included in Christ are no longer separated from God. 
  • Swagnarok
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    So it would follow that sin, rather than merely an act or way of living that incurs the wrath of an angry God, does itself destroy man and keep him from God. Sin would be something that we needed to be rescued from, rather than forgiven of.
    The issue I'd have with this is the fact that Christ did not immediately liberate all humans from sin, but only those who turned to Him, which would seem more consistent with forgiveness, the policy being that He would only forgive those who acknowledged their wrongdoing and petitioned before a Holy God for mercy.

    I would say that it's both: we needed to be both forgiven and rescued, because things that we choose also have the consequence of ensnaring us. Because we are ensnared, it's not enough that we seek forgiveness, because by nature we'll just go back to whatever we were like before. We need to be rescued from sin so that we're able to act in a manner that makes it possible to receive forgiveness.

    (Note: I posted this before seeing your response to my first post.)