Islam, Christianity and the Crucifixion.

Author: Stephen ,

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  • Stephen
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    The New Testament version of the Christs death by crucifixion has always been a  prickly subject for the theist. Was it him/Jesus on the cross? Did he really die did?  Was it all staged and faked?
      
    Islam has it that while they believe Jesus existed, that he was only a prophet and not gods son, and that his believed  death on the cross was all faked:

                   ﭿ                   
    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
    And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. 4:157 
    https://quran.com/4/157-158

    Who was this other? 

    The Christian take on this subject is well known and believed by millions : Jesus was sentenced to death,  another carried his cross, he was nailed up, didn't have his legs broken as did the two hanging with him  and to the surprise of Pilate, he died unusually quickly.   Then  he came back from the dead three days later. As can be read here>> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+27%3A32-56&version=NIV

    Interesting that Islam has it that "another" took the place of the Christ while the bible has it that "another" carried the cross of Jesus, Simon of Cyrene. Matthew 27:32
     
    It is also interesting that the Nag Hammadi library also known as the "Gnostic Gospels" a collection of early Christian and  Gnostic texts  discovered near the  Upper Egyptian town after which these scrolls are named in 1945, also  appear to agree with the Islamic account of  the Christ's supposed crucifixion. 56.6 - 19 NHL 332. It has the Christ himself saying "it was not I". 


    And then there was the late 2nd-century Christian writer Irenaeus who wrote about the teachings of a Gnostic leader named Basilides, who claimed:

    "He did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all," (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 24, Section 4).



  • Dr.Franklin
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    Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .
    So Jesus was the Moses in Islam

    The  more you know
  • Stephen
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    Is it possible that the gospels writer lifted this story from the historian Josephus? 

    "And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered".


    Two died and one survived! 
  • Stephen
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    It appears then that it cannot be disputed that the crucifixion story was an invention by the early Christians and  based around  a story that comes to us from historian Pharisee Josephus.   
  • Stephen
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    The Acts of John are an interesting read.

    Here Jesus explains something mystical to John ;

    You heard that I suffered, but I suffered not.
    An unsuffering one was I, yet suffered.
    One pierced was I, yet not abused.
    One hanged was I, and yet not hanged. Blood flowed from me, yet did not flow.
  • Soul_Doubt
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    --> @Stephen
    Islam has it that while they believe Jesus existed, that he was only a prophet and not gods son, and that his believed  death on the cross was all faked:
    Perhaps Islam got it right; it depends upon one's point of view.

    For example, if one were to be of a biased disposition that everything in the New Testament is true and that all other beliefs are fake and inferior, that individual may well be bent on promoting hatred against Islam.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Soul_Doubt
    Perhaps Islam got it right

    Indeed. they may well have. There are some Christian extra biblical works that suggest just that.   As I have clearly shown above. Did you miss those?


    For example, if one were to be of a biased disposition that everything in the New Testament is true and that all other beliefs are fake and inferior, that individual may well be bent on promoting hatred against Islam.
    Possible, but highlighting two different opinions or versions of an event  is not promoting hatred against one side or the other. Unless one is looking for an excuse to accuse one side of promoting hatred and division.  Is that what you are doing? 

    You also say :

    that individual may well be bent on promoting hatred against Islam.

     If you believe that then why have you only seen it as promoting hatred against Islam?  Why haven't you also suggested that  "that individual may well be bent on promoting hatred against"  Christianity, after all, the thread is questioning and bringing into doubt the crucifixion of the Christ , a Christian icon ?
  • Soul_Doubt
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    --> @Stephen
     If you believe that then why have you only seen it as promoting hatred against Islam?  Why haven't you also suggested that  "that individual may well be bent on promoting hatred against"  Christianity, after all, the thread is questioning and bringing into doubt the crucifixion of the Christ , a Christian icon ?
    However, the title of the thread is "Islam, Christianity and the Crucifixion" and you are making comparisons between the validity of one religion versus another throughout the thread.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Soul_Doubt
     If you believe that then why have you only seen it as promoting hatred against Islam?  Why haven't you also suggested that  "that individual may well be bent on promoting hatred against"  Christianity, after all, the thread is questioning and bringing into doubt the crucifixion of the Christ , a Christian icon ?
    However, the title of the thread is "Islam, Christianity and the Crucifixion" and you are making comparisons between the validity of one religion versus another throughout the thread.
    Yes that is the title. What would you have titled this subject of two  religious events  with differing version from two different  belief systems of the same event  ? 

    validity of one religion
     "Making comparisons"? Am I? I though I was showing  comparisons;  two versions of the same story. It is up to the reader to make any comparisons or not see any comparisons at all.  

    It appears the Christian fraternity don't seem interested or concerned either way and the same goes for the Islamic fraternity.

    So that only leave you thus far.   Are  you then are making case one way or the other. If you are, lets here it.

    I have agreed that the Islamic version of the Christs crucifixion has some merit and as I have shown, there seems to be  also Christian evidence that agrees with their version.
    Which to my mind throws doubt of the Christian version of events.

    Early Christians writers, it appears from the scant evidence, appear to have lifted the Crucifixion of Christ event from the personal experience of  a pharisee general turned Roman, Flavius Josephus. 

    So, if you are only going to repeat yourself again, causing me to repeat myself AGAIN then this circular discussion may as well end here. 










  • Soul_Doubt
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    --> @Stephen
    So, which version of the crucifixion of Christ is right, the Bible or the Quran?
  • Stephen
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    --> @Soul_Doubt
    So, which version of the crucifixion of Christ is right, the Bible or the Quran?
    Neither.