Lets force murderers and rapists to give blood for the rest of their lives

Author: Alec ,

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  • Alec
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    I mean, it would save more people than medicare for all and the rights of a murderer or rapist in this instance shouldn't matter.  I doubt I will be around too frequently since its hard to be on DART, but what are the thoughts around this idea?  Seems like a pretty good idea to me.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Alec
    force?  no, encourage or reward, possibly.  HIV rates in prisons are quite high, probably hepatitis etc as well.  I'd be ok with a small reward for donating (those who could) an extra hour of tv or some such thing.  Also anyone who dies in prison should be an automatic organ donor. (again provided they aren't diseased etc)
  • RationalMadman
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    Right. This would give an unusual advantage to people not in prison for those crimes but still in the high security wings, given that those would be lightheaded and woozy the whole time.

    That's about the only benefit I see of doing this, also they hardly will be productive in any sense of prison work or studying and will come out terrified of the world and resentful even more than they do now.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Alec
    lol so in a society where people are already trying to turn the prison system into a profit making endeavor so they can get rich off the suffering of others, you want to literally harvest people for their blood and meat. I mean, i know many republicans are heartless, money driven assholes. But you have just transitioned to fictional super villain levels of evil. 
  • Alec
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    Also anyone who dies in prison should be an automatic organ donor. (again provided they aren't diseased etc)
    I agree.

    HIV rates in prisons are quite high, probably hepatitis etc as well
    Assuming the rapists/murderers didn't have HIV or any other STD.

    If your a rapist or murderer, you don't deserve freedom.
  • Alec
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    lol so in a society where people are already trying to turn the prison system into a profit making endeavor so they can get rich off the suffering of others, you want to literally harvest people for their blood and meat.
    I'm on the fence about private prisons, but they're murderers and rapists that we're talking about.  Given how much the left respects women, they ought to respect them by punishing the rapists pretty harshly.

    I mean, i know many republicans are heartless, money driven assholes. But you have just transitioned to fictional super villain levels of evil. 
    Poor conduct.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Alec
    I'm on the fence about private prisons, but they're murderers and rapists that we're talking about.  Given how much the left respects women, they ought to respect them by punishing the rapists pretty harshly.
    I do not accept that people ever give up their human rights under any circumstances. Once you accept that it is alright to farm people for meat because they are bad, how bad their have to be to cross that line is now a very dangerous point. Historically the law has been used by the rich to punish the poor and protect their own power. I reject any attempt to expand that power above what is necessary. 


    I mean, i know many republicans are heartless, money driven assholes. But you have just transitioned to fictional super villain levels of evil. 
    Poor conduct.
    You want to farm people for meat.... that is some cartoony levels of evil. I don't know what else to call it. 
  • Imabench
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    I prefer the death penalty for murderers and rapists when its clear they committed the crime
  • Alec
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    I do not accept that people ever give up their human rights under any circumstances. Once you accept that it is alright to farm people for meat because they are bad, how bad their have to be to cross that line is now a very dangerous point. 
    Its not and you can say the same thing with being less tough on crime.  If we rahab serious felons, how long would it take before they only get a slap on the wrist for a murder or rape and commit the crime again?

    Historically the law has been used by the rich to punish the poor and protect their own power
    Rich rapists would get punished the same way a poor rapist would under my rules.

    You want to farm people for meat.... that is some cartoony levels of evil. I don't know what else to call it. 
    Saving people's lives by using rapist's and murderer's blood is not evil.  It's utilitarian.

    Also, it's not very pro women to sympathize with rapists.
  • Alec
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    --> @Imabench
    What's wrong with a utilitarian approach; forcing these convicts to give blood every 2 months to save more live in addition to life in jail?
  • Imabench
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    --> @Alec
    What's wrong with a utilitarian approach; forcing these convicts to give blood every 2 months to save more live in addition to life in jail?
    Just to go off the top of my head: 

    1) It costs a fuckton of money to keep them in jail for life whereas streamlining the death penalty process and how that is carried out could be made way cheaper
    2) Some prisoners could carry blood diseases or genetic abnormalities such as having the XYY chromosome package that makes them more aggressive that wouldnt be good for casual use among civilians 
    3) There's the sticky civil rights issue of whether or not the government could even do such a thing but the death penalty has in most part been cleared in the country 
    4) There are times where blood donation supply isnt in a terrible state/shortage 
    5) I really like the death penalty 

    Not the best arguments but thats where I am on the matter 

  • dustryder
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    Why stop at just blood? If you're intent on violating the bodily autonomy of criminals, think of all the body parts you could harvest. Furthermore, why stop at just convicted criminals? Surely there are plenty of other "undesirables" that are a net negative to society whose rights shouldn't matter. For example, hispanics in America are having an undue influence on overall American culture. Many of them are rapists and murderers, even if some I assume, are good people. Would it not be appropriate to gather them up and place them into re-education camps until they integrate with true American culture? 

    Food for thought?
  • Alec
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    --> @Imabench
    It costs a fuckton of money to keep them in jail for life whereas streamlining the death penalty process and how that is carried out could be made way cheaper
    The death penalty is more expensive because of all the trials that take place.

    Some prisoners could carry blood diseases or genetic abnormalities such as having the XYY chromosome package that makes them more aggressive that wouldnt be good for casual use among civilians 
    If they have XYY, this shouldn't be a too big of a deal.  Males born with XYY tend to be normal, so it's not a violent genetic trait(https://www.google.com/search?q=XYY&oq=XYY&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.988j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8).

    There's the sticky civil rights issue of whether or not the government could even do such a thing but the death penalty has in most part been cleared in the country 
    If the government has the power to take your life without your consent, the government should have the power to take blood from prisoners every 2 months.  Taking blood is a less harsh sentence than the death penalty.

    There are times where blood donation supply isnt in a terrible state/shortage 
    Then we store the blood until there is a shortage or send it somewhere to where it could be of good use to somebody, saving their life.  Or we sell it overseas.


  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Alec
    Its not and you can say the same thing with being less tough on crime.  If we rahab serious felons, how long would it take before they only get a slap on the wrist for a murder or rape and commit the crime again?
    the evidence suggests that being "tough on crime" is ineffective anyway. if people thought they were going to get caught, they wouldn't do it. so putting a super harsh punishment for a crime they don't think they will get caught committed is actually counter productive. 


    Historically the law has been used by the rich to punish the poor and protect their own power
    Rich rapists would get punished the same way a poor rapist would under my rules.
    rich rapists are supposed to be punished now, usually they aren't. So massively increasing how badly you treat people who actually get convicted has no effect on rich people because they don't usually get charged, let alone convicted. 

    Saving people's lives by using rapist's and murderer's blood is not evil.  It's utilitarian.
    chopping someone up into parts because you don't see them as having any value. That is straight up evil. That is nazi levels of evil. They thought the jews had no value and were detrimental to society, so it was perfectly fine to run experiments on them, work them to death etc. You are proposing the same sort of thing. 

    Also, it's not very pro women to sympathize with rapists.
    Making ourselves into inhuman monsters doesn't help women. 

  • Alec
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    the evidence suggests that being "tough on crime" is ineffective anyway.
    If there is no punishment for a crime, then it is done very frequently.  Don't mean to straw man you, but your going to have to draw a line eventually as to how harshly to punish murderers and rapists.

    rich rapists are supposed to be punished now, usually they aren't. So massively increasing how badly you treat people who actually get convicted has no effect on rich people because they don't usually get charged, let alone convicted. 
    So then charge the rich rapists.

    chopping someone up into parts because you don't see them as having any value. That is straight up evil
    Why?  They're dead when its being done to them.

    They thought the jews had no value and were detrimental to society, so it was perfectly fine to run experiments on them, work them to death etc.
    There is a moral difference between being Jewish and being a murderer or  rapist.

    Making ourselves into inhuman monsters doesn't help women. 
    The women want justice for the rapes done to them.  If we take the rapist's blood, we can sell it to other domestic or foreign hospitals, get some money or assets for the blood we sold, if necessary convert that to cash by selling it to another company, and with that cash, partially fund a UBI for rape victims, paid for by the rapist's blood.  This also includes the murderers of George Floyd.

     I mean, i know many republicans are heartless, money driven assholes.
    Why does the left advocate for sympathizing and rehabilitating criminals so much?  It seems though as if they have a bleeding heart for everyone, including literal killers and rapists, while pretending to be pro women at the same time because they believe in killing unwanted unborn babies.  The left sympathizes with rapists more than they do with the unborn, even though unlike the rapist, the unborn is not a felon.

    This is slightly off topic, but the left cares about the poor votes, not the poor folks.  If they cared about poor people, they would have overturned the socialist war on poverty a long time ago since it failed its only goal; to get people out of poverty.  The left however has a fetish for keeping people dependent on the government, so they want people to stay poor so they can vote for democrats.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Alec
    If there is no punishment for a crime, then it is done very frequently.  Don't mean to straw man you, but your going to have to draw a line eventually as to how harshly to punish murderers and rapists.
    you say you don't mean to straw man me, as you are straw manning me....

    But the severity of the punishment does not correlate very well to whether or not someone commits a crime. the punishment needs to be strong enough that people wouldn't want it to happen to them. (like a few years in jail). But making punishments more and more severe beyond that are counter productive. It is far more effective to go after the underlying reasons the crimes were committed, like fighting poverty and providing better education.

    rich rapists are supposed to be punished now, usually they aren't. So massively increasing how badly you treat people who actually get convicted has no effect on rich people because they don't usually get charged, let alone convicted. 
    So then charge the rich rapists.
    They are protected by a corrupt system. I haven't seen anything in your proposal that addresses that. 

    chopping someone up into parts because you don't see them as having any value. That is straight up evil
    Why?  They're dead when its being done to them.
    ok. so you are now having the government murdering people and chopping them into parts for your own benefit. That is pretty much the darkest sort of dystopia I can imagine. 

    They thought the jews had no value and were detrimental to society, so it was perfectly fine to run experiments on them, work them to death etc.
    There is a moral difference between being Jewish and being a murderer or  rapist.
    You are making a blanket statement that everyone in a certain category, their lives have no value and you can do whatever you want to them. That is precisely the logic used by slavers, nazi's etc.

    The women want justice for the rapes done to them.
    there is a HUGE difference between justice and farming humans for meat. 

    If we take the rapist's blood, we can sell it to other domestic or foreign hospitals, get some money or assets for the blood we sold, if necessary convert that to cash by selling it to another company, and with that cash, partially fund a UBI for rape victims, paid for by the rapist's blood.
    ok, you are now moving beyond the who "public good" aspect of the evil and want to directly profit off of chopping human beings into spare parts. how are you not seeing the cartoonishly evil aspects of this plan?

    Why does the left advocate for sympathizing and rehabilitating criminals so much?
    because they are humans. and because it is far more effective. the US has highest imprisoned population per capita in the world by a sizable margin. but it hasn't magically fixed crime. locking them up forever doesn't fix the problem because it doesn't prevent crime. It does however create a massive expense in housing and feeding huge numbers of people. 

    It seems though as if they have a bleeding heart for everyone, including literal killers and rapists, while pretending to be pro women at the same time because they believe in killing unwanted unborn babies..
    if you think that upholding human rights is a "bleeding heart", then you clearly do not give a shit if people have human rights.

    The left sympathizes with rapists more than they do with the unborn, even though unlike the rapist, the unborn is not a felon.
    Let me translate. The left sympathizes with human beings more than a clump of cells (which is not a human being). 

    This is slightly off topic, but the left cares about the poor votes, not the poor folks. 
    no, you are incorrect. The left cares about the poor. The democratic party establishment only cares about the poor votes. The democratic party establishment are mostly right wing (economically). 

    If they cared about poor people, they would have overturned the socialist war on poverty a long time ago since it failed its only goal; to get people out of poverty.
    and replaced it with what? throwing people out on the streets to die? Or more likely imprisoning them, the good republican way?

    The left however has a fetish for keeping people dependent on the government, so they want people to stay poor so they can vote for democrats.
    again, you are confusing "left" and "democratic party". They are not the same thing. The people who run the democratic party are not left, they are right of center on economic policy. 
  • Alec
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    the punishment needs to be strong enough that people wouldn't want it to happen to them. (like a few years in jail). But making punishments more and more severe beyond that are counter productive.
    So your saying the punishment for murder should only be a few years in jail?

     It is far more effective to go after the underlying reasons the crimes were committed, like fighting poverty and providing better education.
    Poverty would barely exist if it wasn't for Lyndon B Johnson's war on poverty, which caused people to become dependent on the government.  It would be like launching a war on abortion, and the abortion rate stagnating after it was launched after falling for decades.  If that's the case, then the war on abortion would have to be overturned, just like what the war on poverty should be to reduce poverty since it failed its only goal.

    They are protected by a corrupt system. I haven't seen anything in your proposal that addresses that. 
    I would want rich rapists charged with rape and put on trial for it and each side has comparably skilled and paid lawyers to make it fair.

    ok. so you are now having the government murdering people and chopping them into parts for your own benefit.
    Murderers and rapists don't deserve human rights.  They denied their victims human rights, they deserve the same treatment.

    That is precisely the logic used by slavers, nazi's etc.
    They sorted people based off of race or religion, things that who cares if your black and/or jewish.  Being a rapist or a murderer are like the worst things you can do in society.  They therefore deserve to be punished more.

    there is a HUGE difference between justice and farming humans for meat. 
    I don't want them farmed for meat; that would be inefficient.  Certain crimes don't deserve the chance to be rehabbed.  Drug use does, robbery does.  But there is no excuse to murder and rape.

    ok, you are now moving beyond the who "public good" aspect of the evil and want to directly profit off of chopping human beings into spare parts. how are you not seeing the cartoonishly evil aspects of this plan?
    Because ... it saves innocent people.

    Why does the left advocate for sympathizing and rehabilitating criminals so much?
    because they are humans.
    So what?

    the US has highest imprisoned population per capita in the world by a sizable margin
    This is because of the drug war, which too has failed.  I want the drug war to end.  But rapists and murderers don't deserve freedom and they are rare enough to make this possible.

    if you think that upholding human rights is a "bleeding heart", then you clearly do not give a shit if people have human rights.
    I don't want rapists and murderers to have human rights.

    The left sympathizes with human beings more than a clump of cells (which is not a human being). 
    Your technically a clump of cells too.  What separates a human from a cancer cell is if the cells are specialized.  A fetus has their cells specialized 6 weeks into the pregnancy, and the left wants to legalize the killing of the fetus up until 20 weeks in.  In Canada, it's legal up until the moment of birth to do this, when the kid can feel pain.  An innocent fetus with specialized cells has more value than a rapist.

    The left cares about the poor.
    Then the WoP would have been overturned decades ago.

    and replaced it with what?
    A policy I call, "Find and grind" meaning we show low income people where they can get good jobs that only require a high school degree, we loosen the regulations on businesses so poor people have more incentive to start a small business that hopefully grows and hires more good paying jobs, and poverty is virtually gone in less than a decade.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Alec
    So your saying the punishment for murder should only be a few years in jail?
    i didn't say how many years in jail, that isn't my point.

    Poverty would barely exist if it wasn't for Lyndon B Johnson's war on poverty, which caused people to become dependent on the government. 
    lol so poverty didn't exist until the government declared war on it? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

    Murderers and rapists don't deserve human rights.  They denied their victims human rights, they deserve the same treatment.
    you are using a contradiction in terms. You say humans don't deserve human rights. Either they are human rights (ie all humans have them) or they aren't. You can't pick and choose which humans are worthy of them. 

    They sorted people based off of race or religion, things that who cares if your black and/or jewish.  Being a rapist or a murderer are like the worst things you can do in society.  They therefore deserve to be punished more.
    no one has ever argued that murderers shouldn't be punished. 

    ok, you are now moving beyond the who "public good" aspect of the evil and want to directly profit off of chopping human beings into spare parts. how are you not seeing the cartoonishly evil aspects of this plan?
    Because ... it saves innocent people.
    ok. if the US government took every single gun in america away it would save countless lives. If they took ever single car away, it would save countless lives. Just because something saves lives doesn't make it good. The nazi's would have argued that killing the jews would save the world from wars the jews started. They could make horrible fake moral arguments too. 



    Why does the left advocate for sympathizing and rehabilitating criminals so much?
    because they are humans.
    So what?
    so humans have human rights. That is why they are human rights. 
    the US has highest imprisoned population per capita in the world by a sizable margin
    This is because of the drug war, which too has failed.  I want the drug war to end.  But rapists and murderers don't deserve freedom and they are rare enough to make this possible.
    they don't have freedoms, that is what prisons are for. They do have rights though. And i'm pretty sure the constitution includes are rule about cruel or unusual punishment. 

    I don't want rapists and murderers to have human rights.
    then you don't believe that anyone has human rights. Either everyone has human rights, or no one does. If you can decide that people don't have them, then that de facto makes them government provided rights, not human rights. 

    Your technically a clump of cells too.  What separates a human from a cancer cell is if the cells are specialized. 
    this isn't a discussion about abortion and i dont want to get into one. but short version is that a murderer is still a person, a fetus is not. 

    The left cares about the poor.
    Then the WoP would have been overturned decades ago.
    No one on the left has held power in decades. both republican and democrat establishment are right wing economically. 

    A policy I call, "Find and grind" meaning we show low income people where they can get good jobs that only require a high school degree, we loosen the regulations on businesses so poor people have more incentive to start a small business that hopefully grows and hires more good paying jobs, and poverty is virtually gone in less than a decade.
    gotcha, your plan is "capitalism will magically make everything better" even though history proves that it won't. Unregulated capitalism fuels poverty, it doesn't help it. You only have to look at what the labor market looked like before governments started regulating it. Workers were basically just meat to be used up and discarded for profit. If they died, so be it. They just hired more. And since everyone treated their workers like that, competition drove worker pay and safety standards down, not up, in an attempt to cut costs.