SE Chat Room #4

Author: Jeff_Goldblum ,

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  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    Thanks to Fauxlaw for accepting.

  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Ok, friend. Thank you again for accepting. Let's begin.

    How do you describe your God belief? To be clear, I am not yet asking you to justify your belief. I am merely asking you to describe the belief.

  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Jeff_Goldblum
    As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. We are all spirit children of God. He is our Heavenly Father. He once went through a mortal experience, obtaining a physical body which we now have, learning, growing, and progressing toward an existence He now enjoys. He, as a mortal, went through the experiences we now have. He is further along a path that we now experience. Being ahead of us in progression, we will never be His equal because He, too, still progresses. He is still in a pattern of learning and experiencing life, but in a glorified state that we can also attain by obedience and endurance of joy and sorrow, and all other opposing forces which we are bound to experience in life. Birth was the beginning of our physical experience, and death is just another passage into a brief, spiritual existence from which we, as did God, will ultimately resurrect, fusing our spirit and physical bodies together into a permanent, glorified body that will then exist, learn, grow, and progress on an eternal path of further light and knowledge, potentially becoming Gods ourselves, to start the cycle over again, which has cycled for unknown eons of eternal generations, past and future. Knowledge, and the practical application of that knowledge, i.e., wisdom, is an eternal progression in which we are now in process of acquisition, and it will always be so because there is no end to knowledge, which functions by law, and which laws are necessary to follow in order to achieve our greatest potential. The further we progress on the path of acquiring knowledge, and using it wisely by following the laws that dictate that progression, the further we progress on that path, just as God is still progressing now, and always will.
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Thanks for your response.

    On a scale of 0-100 (with 0 being "not at all" and 100 being "without a doubt"), how confident are you that your God belief is correct?
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Jeff_Goldblum
    100% by your scale; off the chart by mine. 
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Splendid!

    Could you share your main reason(s) for such high confidence in this belief? To be clear, I am not requesting that you provide an in-depth justification for your belief. Because this is an interview, you really only need to outline the reason(s) for your belief.
  • fauxlaw
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    That I recognize a higher embodied intelligence who is called "Father," "God," and I also apreciate the moniker, "Holy Man," i.e., the most holiest Man in my existence, but recognizing that He recognizes still another "Father," etc, to whom He owes deference, is as logical a construct as my recognition of an earthly ancestry whose foremost example is my father and mother, the parents of my physical body, just as I referred to a Heavenly Father - and I have a Heavenly Mother, as well. Further, I recognize that just as God [a title, not a name] is the Father of my spirit, I am the father of children, and now grandchildren, and the descendants will continue through generations to come, ad infinitum. This generational concept of linkage to divinity is completely and wholly logical to me as both an eternal past, and an eternal future destiny.

    To describe how this is known to me is as natural as learning and experiencing at my father's knee, watching him, and trying to do likewise, him teaching me, me teaching my children and grandchildren. When I pray to my Father in Heaven, I am speaking directly to a personage in whose likeness I am. I am at His knee, and He gives liberally when I asm most humble and desirous of that knowledge. It is because I have been given knowledge of Him that I seek Him for further knowledge. Quite simply, I know Him. I know He knows me. I speak to Him as naturally as I can speak to my children, and my father. We're family; all of us. 
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Forgive me if I strip your reply of its elegance as I attempt to restate the most salient points. If you think I'm missing something or misunderstood, let me know.

    To my understanding, here are your main reasons for holding such high confidence in your belief:

    1) The concept of a divine father/divine generational structure is in keeping with your notion of earthly family structures. Or, to put it more crudely, because humans have parents and children, there must also be a divine system of parents and children that involves us.
    2) You say you know God and can speak to him just as you speak to other family members. Again, this may be overly crude, but to my understanding this is a form of direct evidence of God's existence (i.e. "the God talked to me, so I know he exists").
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Jeff_Goldblum
    Number one you have understood completelty.

    Two, however, isn't quite on the mark, but only by way of the communication method employed by God to me. I do not her His voice as I would my earth parents, or anybody else. He could, of course, speak vocally as He has in the past, but He seldom speaks vocally to the typical, ordinary person, and seldom did. I believe in living prophets just as were on earth anciently. The communication to me, however, is more subtle, and is expressed in direct relation to the degree of faith and humility I express to God.

    Faith is an entirely complicated process that would require a section of this interview all on its own, and I hope you'll give me that opportunity. Let me just say for now, as a teaser, that, to me, belief and faith are entirely separate elements of acquisition of spiritual knowledge. I put is this way: belief puts no demands on me to act. I can believe whatever I want, but have n obligation to act on it, or even to attempt to prove it. Faith, on the other hand, demands that I act on a matter I take on faith, such as the existence of God. I am compelled to act beyond the simplicity of belief. Because God exists, according to my faith in Him, I ought to b e obedient to Him in all respects that I can so act. M<Y faith in His integroty toward me is that by my obedience to him in all times and places, and not just when it is convenient for me, because acting in a contrary fashion if it is inconvenient just means I am unwilling to be obedient no matter what.It is faith the drives me to reject such invariability on my part. When I have desired to know a proper path to take, and I prepare what I consider are possible actions to take, I choose among the choices on choice I believe wold be His mind and will for me to do, and I have chosen correctly, I perceive a warm, gently burn at my heart that quickly swells and expands throughout my entire being. It is a sixth sense that tells me I've made a proper choice, and that I will be aided in its achievement if I remain faithful and obedient. If I don't follow through, I am denied the blessing of achieving my desire. Mere belief has no power to do this to me.
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    I would also like to explore faith more. I have two questions, which you may wish to address in an inter-related fashion. Whatever you deem best.

    1) Can you define faith?
    2) I want to make sure we're on the same page: this warm feeling you get when making what you believe is the correct decision - this flows from your faith, is that correct?
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Jeff_Goldblum
    Since 1 will take a bit, and I'm pressed for time right now, I'll just give you 2 for the time being.

    Yes, the warmth I feel - which is accompanied by a sense of pure joy, and forgot to mention - flows from my faith. I use "faith" in this vernacular as a sense, like sight or hearing or touch [you know the traditional five], not as the religion to which I align. In my response to #1, I'll explore the senses reference as it relates to faith.

    By the way, I appreciate your attitude, and the concept. Thanks
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Take your time!
  • fauxlaw
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    --> @Jeff_Goldblum
    Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews offers one of the best definitions of faith I’ve ever encountered. Hebrews 11: 1 reads: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.” [bolding for emphasis] The operative words describing faith are the bolded substance and evidence, both of which are common words we understand with little pondering: substance and evidence are the very properties we seek in law, and science. In other words, faith is demonstrated as a physically demonstrated thing, whereas mere belief, as I earlier said, can be anything we can imagine, but that does not have such substance or evidence of being so. By this, we can consider that faith is operable only in things which have substance and evidence. In other words, though we may believe the sun orbits the earth, as it is apparent to our common senses [sight, in particular], we now know this is not so. Faith expressed in such a phenomenon proved to be faulty. True faith would have revealed the truth of the matter; that the earth orbits the sun; that the universe is not geocentric as was believed for millennia. Witness what was done to Galileo for no other reason than proving beyond faith, but by perfect knowledge by both mathematic calculation and observance through his telescope that, although the science of the day [17thcentury] said the universe was geocentric, Galileo observed Jupiter’s moons orbiting Jupiter, not earth. The Church put Galileo in house arrest for the duration of his life for his heresy; heresy that proved to be true.
     
    Faith can only be operable with things that are first true, even if currently unknown by empiric knowledge, which depends on our five senses. It is evidence of things unseen, or not felt, or smelled, etc. Truth exists even when not demonstrated by empiric evidence. Truth outside of empiric evidence can be proved by faith.
     
    I consider faith as a sixth sense, much as animals which also share our five senses, have a sixth, or more, such as echo location, or sense of earth’s magnetic field. By the perception of faith – that warmth that grows from the core and permeates the entire body, and gives joy as a byproduct and is akin to the feeling of touch on our exterior, but is, instead, an interior feeling - is palpable, but only by the one experiencing it, although it can be shared by others if they, too, are attuned to the Holy Spirit that is its source.
     
    The nature of faith is that it must be sought, it takes work in study and prayer, it requires dedication to the task, and confidence in its realization. It is by faith that we plant a seed of desired knowledge. We study, cultivate, nourish, and feel it grow. We continue in that mode, with sincere hope, that we will, at a time that may not be of our choosing, but will occur if we act on our faith, feeling the growth of the seed within us until it blossoms and bears fruit, and we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit that we have discovered a truth not had before. It will not be achieved by coercion, nor by doubt, or cynicism. It will be accompanied by the feeling of the joy of discovery. By such means, we can seek to understand the scriptures, but, more than that, the same experiment of our faith can reveal the truth of all things.
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    --> @fauxlaw
    Thank you for the detailed reply! I appreciate you taking the time to communicate. Hopefully you'll find your effort to be worth it. I'll certainly do my best to make that so as we continue.

    In typical fashion, I'd like to restate what you said in my own words, to ensure I'm on the same page as you. Here is my understanding of your definition of faith:
    • Faith is a sixth sense - it gives you a noticeable physiological reaction (warmth)
    • Faith can only be perceived if one is in touch with the Holy Spirit
    • Faith is only operable when the belief in question is true (even if our other five senses can't prove said belief is true)

    How am I doing?
  • fauxlaw
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    You are on my page, except that I would qualify #1 [faith is a sixth sense] to the degree that the sensation itself is not faith, but the result of applying faith; acting on faith. Having faith is the ability, and desire, to discover truth, and the willingness to act with decisive desire to obtain it.
  • Jeff_Goldblum
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    Great, thank you. I think I understand you clearly.

    Having clarified that, I'd like to go back to posts #7 and #8 and ask about these two reasons you provide.

    Which reason is most important for your high confidence? Are they equally important? If you didn't have one of the two reasons, what would happen to your confidence level?