I support open borders change my mind

Author: TheUnderdog ,

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  • TheUnderdog
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    If you disagree with open borders, I want to know why because open borders seem pretty good to me.  One comment at a time though, I don't want to be spammed.
  • ILikePie5
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    We’d inherit all the crime from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, not to mention the cartel violence from Mexico
  • TheUnderdog
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    I don't think that is accurate.  When the US had practically open borders with war filled Europe in the early 20th century, we didn't get war in the US.  The people fled the war; they hated war and they didn't want to bring that war here.  I think the same would apply to Latin American immigrants.

    Thoughts?
  • ILikePie5
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    I don't think that is accurate.  When the US had practically open borders with war filled Europe in the early 20th century, we didn't get war in the US.  The people fled the war; they hated war and they didn't want to bring that war here.  I think the same would apply to Latin American immigrants.
    You don’t have to think it’s accurate. It’s already happening. Imagine MS-13 on steroids. Imagine cartel violence on steroids. Open borders helps El Chapo and El Mayo along with the Colombians.
  • Greyparrot
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    Open borders means that nation can be culturally appropriated by another nation.

    The kind of appropriation that was inflicted on practically all the native populations in the Americas and Australia.

    What also happened to Rome when they lost control of their borders. Roman language Latin is now a dead language due to open borders.

    Open borders would ensure America would become 100% Hispanic speaking within 5 generations.
  • thett3
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    --> @TheUnderdog
    When the US had practically open borders with war filled Europe in the early 20th century, we didn't get war in the US.  The people fled the war; they hated war and they didn't want to bring that war here.  I think the same would apply to Latin American immigrants.
    The foreign ideologies imported with mass 19th century immigration resulted in large numbers of riots and terrorist attacks, culminating in the assassination of President William McKinley by one of the "new Americans" of that time. Mass immigration didn't lead to civil war (is anyone contending that it will?) but it absolutely led to a lot of unnecessary domestic strife in the 19th century. We'll see how to 21st century plays out but looking at the current state of American politics it aint looking great 
  • TheUnderdog
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    Imagine cartel violence on steroids. Open borders helps El Chapo and El Mayo along with the Colombians.
    The people coming here are fleeing the gangs.  I live in a sanctuary state, and the undocumented immigrants aren't destroying the economy.  What we should do with the gangs is jail them for selling drugs without a license, and rehab them if they are using bad drugs recreationaly.
  • TheUnderdog
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    --> @thett3
    The foreign ideologies imported with mass 19th century immigration resulted in large numbers of riots and terrorist attacks
    19th century immigration didn't result in that many terrorist attacks and statistically speaking, guns kill more people than terrorist attacks.  Freedom is dangerous as hell, but its worth it, otherwise we would be living in a nanny state.
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @TheUnderdog
    The people coming here are fleeing the gangs.  I live in a sanctuary state, and the undocumented immigrants aren't destroying the economy.  What we should do with the gangs is jail them for selling drugs without a license, and rehab them if they are using bad drugs recreationaly.
    And then when they complete their sentences you deport them and then they come back again. Now imagine this happening on a larger scale. If borders disappear thousands of criminals pour into the nation from around the world 
  • TheUnderdog
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Open borders means that nation can be culturally appropriated by another nation.
    In the situation of the US, not accurate.  Open borders means open borders with the whole world.  There would be Hispanic immigrants, but there would also be immigrants from Sub saharan Africa, the Muslim world, India, and China.  With no clear nationality to settle on, American would be the default nationality and English would be the default language picked by the immigrants.

    The kind of appropriation that was inflicted on practically all the native populations in the Americas and Australia.
    They had lack of disease resilience.  But in this globalized world, the odds of an immigrant bringing in some foreign disease that wipes out 90% of the US population is practically not there anymore.  With vaccines and medicine, any diseases that might hop ship to the US would easily be taken care of.

    What also happened to Rome when they lost control of their borders.
    Rome fell because they failed to assimilate non Romans that they conquered.  With America, the immigrants will assimilate on their own and if they don't, their kids will.

    Roman language Latin is now a dead language due to open borders.
    Latin is a dead language because only the elites knew the language.  With English, this won't be the case since the elite's language is the same language as the language of the common people in the US (English).

    Open borders would ensure America would become 100% Hispanic speaking within 5 generations.
    Also not accurate.  Most immigrants won't even be from Latin America with open borders since many Sub Saharan Africans, Muslims, Indians, and Chinese would also come and assimilate on their own.  These groups will have a strong tendency to know English, and America has the power to assimilate all immigrants virtually within 2 generations or so, causing the nation to thrive.
  • TheUnderdog
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    And then when they complete their sentences you deport them and then they come back again.
    The punishment for selling drugs without a license should be life in jail without parole, so they aren't getting released if they sell drugs without a permit on American soil.

     If borders disappear thousands of criminals pour into the nation from around the world 
    If they commit a crime in the US, then they get tried for that crime as if they did it in the US.
  • ILikePie5
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    The punishment for selling drugs without a license should be life in jail without parole, so they aren't getting released if they sell drugs without a permit on American soil.
    Where are you gonna put all the drug offenders? You’re easily gonna run out of room. Not to mention it would likely be a violation of the 8th Amendment at a smaller level of vending drugs.

    If they commit a crime in the US, then they get tried for that crime as if they did it in the US.
    That’s the point. Why let it happen in the first place when we can prevent it as much as possible. You’re giving criminals candy by leaving the borders open.
  • Greyparrot
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    Can't have open borders with open welfare anyway without bankrupting the country.

    Pick one or the other.
  • ethang5
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    --> @TheUnderdog
    No one is asking the underdog any questions. Give him a few questions and he will quickly run or dodge.

    The people coming here are fleeing the gangs.
    Why do you think there are gangs worth fleeing in the countries they're from?

    If our borders were open, what would stop those gangs from following those fleeing people into America?

    Would everyone be able to vote? How would we document anyone if people are flowing in and out of the country?

    What would stop criminals from escaping to bordering countries after crimes and returning at will later to repeat their crimes?
  • TheUnderdog
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Can't have open borders with open welfare anyway without bankrupting the country.

    Pick one or the other.
    Okay.  We open the borders and eliminate welfare for everybody.
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @TheUnderdog
    I mean, if you want to bring crime, a destruction of American culture, obliterate the working and middle class, and make our culture much less cohesive than it already is, then go on ahead and support the worst policy anybody could ever fathom.

    Is enriching owners of corporations with cheap, low skill workers really worth all of that?
  • TheUnderdog
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    Where are you gonna put all the drug offenders? You’re easily gonna run out of room. Not to mention it would likely be a violation of the 8th Amendment at a smaller level of vending drugs.
    I'd rehab the drug users but the drug sellers would be small in number so jailing them would be feasible.

    Why let it happen in the first place when we can prevent it as much as possible. You’re giving criminals candy by leaving the borders open.
    The way we prevent it is by rehabbing all the non violent drug users, so it leaves the drug cartels powerless since anyone they try to get addicted to their drugs would get rehabbed instead of jailed.
  • TheUnderdog
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     Give him a few questions and he will quickly run or dodge.
    When did I do this?

    Why do you think there are gangs worth fleeing in the countries they're from?
    Because they got something pretty bad in Latin America, just like they did in Europe with WWI.  Immigrants often don't emulate the countries they are from, otherwise NYC would be heavily run by the Italian Mafia.  This is not the case to this day.

    If our borders were open, what would stop those gangs from following those fleeing people into America?
    The gangs would come, but they would be punished under US law if they do any crimes within the US (except for coming here without a license).  They murder someone; they get sentenced to the LAG penalty.

    Would everyone be able to vote? How would we document anyone if people are flowing in and out of the country?
    I don't see why the immigrants can't vote if they are of age.  Why would we want to document where people are going exactly?

    What would stop criminals from escaping to bordering countries after crimes and returning at will later to repeat their crimes?
    The same thing that would happen if I committed a crime in NY, and moved to Kansas to flee NY.  I would get caught and punished for the crime.  If someone commits a crime in China and flees to the US, the Chinese police would come and arrest the person if the US consents to the arrest (granted this wouldn't be the case if the person does something that's legal in the US, but illegal in China like protesting against the government).
  • TheUnderdog
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    I mean, if you want to bring crime
    Not going to happen.  Guns kill more people than immigrants do on a per capita basis and I'm pro 2nd amendment.

    a destruction of American culture
    Not going to happen because the immigrants would assimilate on their own or if they don't, their kids will end up doing that.  Open borders means every person in the entire world can come to the US.  There will be multiple different cultures, which will mix and their culture will be American by default.  This is why despite NYC being heavily influenced with Italians, there is no mafia, and the region is American.

    obliterate the working and middle class
    How?  It would expand the middle class if anything.

    then go on ahead and support the worst policy anybody could ever fathom.
    It's not a bad policy; I've met plenty who support the idea.  It's consistent small government ethic, and gets us out of debt with low taxes as well since there would be more taxpayers in the nation, making the tax burden per American less.
  • bmdrocks21
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    Not going to happen.  Guns kill more people than immigrants do on a per capita basis and I'm pro 2nd amendment.

    Guns also save a ton of lives.

    Not going to happen because the immigrants would assimilate on their own or if they don't, their kids will end up doing that.  Open borders means every person in the entire world can come to the US.  There will be multiple different cultures, which will mix and their culture will be American by default.  This is why despite NYC being heavily influenced with Italians, there is no mafia, and the region is American.

    You know what happened after that Ellis Island wave of immigration? We stopped letting in new immigrants. That is why they were forced to assimilate. A constant flow, if you look at the Southwestern US, doesn't allow that. There are areas in the US that you must speak Spanish to get by.

    And Middle Eastern culture mixing with Latin American culture is not American culture.

    How?  It would expand the middle class if anything.

    By forcing them to compete with slave wages.....

    All this helps is businesses in cutting down wages and immigrants getting slightly better wages than their home country.

    It's not a bad policy; I've met plenty who support the idea.  It's consistent small government ethic, and gets us out of debt with low taxes as well since there would be more taxpayers in the nation, making the tax burden per American less.

    There are plenty of popular policies that are terrible ideas. I have met many people advocating for Marxism, but that doesn't make it smart.

    Our nation is experiencing debt because of welfare programs and the fact that the lower earning 50% of Americans pay essentially no taxes.

    We can easily pay off the debt with what who we have.

    Plus, most of the people flooding in from Central and South America are going to have little education and will be very poor, so our current tax code wouldn't apply to them, either.
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @TheUnderdog
    I'd rehab the drug users but the drug sellers would be small in number so jailing them would be feasible.
    You clearly don’t know anything about cartels my dude lol. You bring Mexico to the US and El Chapo and everyone escapes from prison. What are you going to do when a bunch of Hispanics paid with cartel money that vastly outnumber Americans show up at your doorsteps and in front of prisons.

    The way we prevent it is by rehabbing all the non violent drug users, so it leaves the drug cartels powerless since anyone they try to get addicted to their drugs would get rehabbed instead of jailed.
    You think they’d allow that lmao? If Cartel money supply goes away they resort to even more violence like extortion. You can’t throw them all in jail cause they’d just be freed with the help of their buddies who’d infiltrate every institution in the US.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @TheUnderdog
    you think tribalism is bad now LOL open up the borders and watch.  talk about chaos, power grabbing and kingdom building.  There are many religions which are compatible with each other.  Even with the current borders etc Christianity spreads.  Open borders you may as well kill off your competition while you convert.  It would be out in the open but I can't see why it wouldn't happen.
    Have you thought about unintended consequences?

    imagine the blackmarket profiteers, their main stumbling block is borders and border security, now if that was gone?
  • ethang5
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    Why do you think there are gangs worth fleeing in the countries they're from?

    Because they got something pretty bad in Latin America,
    You're not getting me. I'm asking why do they have something pretty bad in Latin America? It isn't the land that makes the culture, it's the people. You bring the people, you bring the culture. Your idea will ship everything the people are fleeing from, into America with them.

    otherwise NYC would be heavily run by the Italian Mafia.  This is not the case to this day.
    It was. And it was cleaned up with ideas opposite yours.

    If our borders were open, what would stop those gangs from following those fleeing people into America?

    The gangs would come, but they would be punished under US law if they do any crimes within the US (except for coming here without a license). 
    So the fleeing people would not escape the gangs. Do you know that the countries those gangs are from also have laws? You idea just removes the safety of the persecuted.

    Would everyone be able to vote? How would we document anyone if people are flowing in and out of the country?

    I don't see why the immigrants can't vote if they are of age.
    How would you know who has voted and who hasn't? You aren't documenting anyone entering the country.

    Why would we want to document where people are going exactly?
    1. Because our citizens get accused of crimes in other countries, how would we know they were even there?
    2. Because benefits of citizens should be safe even if they leave the country, what's to stop someone else taking his benefits under his stolen identity if the governmend doesn't know he's left?
    3. How would we know if someone else was trying to enter the country under his name if we have no record of him leaving?

    What would stop criminals from escaping to bordering countries after crimes and returning at will later to repeat their crimes?

    The same thing that would happen if I committed a crime in NY, and moved to Kansas to flee NY.
    Untrue. NY and Kansas are the same country. China isn't. Do you have extradition treaties with other countries?

    If someone commits a crime in China and flees to the US, the Chinese police would come and arrest the person....
    How would the Chinese know the person was in the US? You didn't document his entry. Did he use the same name as he did in China?

    if the US consents to the arrest...
    Why would China need US consent? There are no borders remember?

    (granted this wouldn't be the case if the person does something that's legal in the US, but illegal in China like protesting against the government).
    Now you are starting to think. The idea of no borders is a childish idea pushed by people who don't know human nature. It makes no sense in actual practice.
  • TheUnderdog
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    Guns also save a ton of lives.
    So do immigrants, like when they are blood donors.

    You know what happened after that Ellis Island wave of immigration? We stopped letting in new immigrants.
    That was done to make sure that the immigrants learn English.  Granted, if we opened up our borders with the whole world, many of the immigrants would already know English since the English language is incredibly widespread amongst the world population.  More people know English than the number that know Chinese(around 20%).  Also, there is some instinctual assilimination that immigrants as a group already go through that would ensure that this number is over 20%.  I say this because here is my line of thinking:

    -The US doesn't filter on the basis of religion.  Despite that, immigrants from India are more likely to be Christian if they reside in the US (around 20%) than if they aren't immigrants (around 2%).

    I therefore think that if the US didn't filter on the basis of English proficiency, we would still get more English knowledge among the immigrants than random earthlings would present.  Immigrants tend to in many respects emulate the country they immigrate too.

    A constant flow, if you look at the Southwestern US, doesn't allow that. There are areas in the US that you must speak Spanish to get by.
    There aren't that many areas in the US where this is the case.  There are some, but not many.  Most people in CA and TX know only English in terms of languages.  Moreover, with open borders, people are mostly going to live in big metropolitan cities, far from the US border, and other immigrants would come so English would be used as a lingua franca and eventually as a primary language amongst the descendants of immigrants.

    And Middle Eastern culture mixing with Latin American culture is not American culture.
    A lebanese person and a Bolivian person having a kid will mean that the kid will easily learn ENglish and may be bilingual, but English would be their primary language.

    By forcing them to compete with slave wages.....

    All this helps is businesses in cutting down wages and immigrants getting slightly better wages than their home country.
    Immigrants are more likely to own businesses than native born people.


    Business formation rates are even higher among immigrants than the nonimmigrant. The business formation rate per month among immigrants is 0.62percent (or 620 out of 100,000). This monthly rate of business formation is muchhigher than the non-immigrant rate of 0.28 percent (or 280 of 100,000).

    We can easily pay off the debt with what who we have.
    Then why haven't we?

    Plus, most of the people flooding in from Central and South America are going to have little education and will be very poor, so our current tax code wouldn't apply to them, either.
    I'd abolish the income tax and replace it with a sales tax and a capitol gains tax.  Anyone that buys anything for any reason would have to pay a tax on it.  This applies to native born people and immigrants.  I'd show them how to get good paying jobs with the education they have (there are so many jobs you can get with no college education, so hook the immigrants and anyone else who needs one with a job and they should be set).  They also could own a business, creating jobs for many other people (which immigrants are more likely to do) and unemployment would plummet.




  • TheUnderdog
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    --> @ethang5 @ILikePie5 @TheDredPriateRoberts
    I'll respond to yall later.  I don't think I have much more time on my end.  Sorry for the inconvenience.