Scientific Racism

Author: RoderickSpode

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Is it real?

Yes! It's probably been around for ages, profoundly manifested when Darwinian evolution came on the scene, and exists subtly today.

Not to be confused with the question of science itself being racist, which is not the case as science is not a personality.


Yes, theoretically from a natural evolutionist standpoint, if objectively observed evidence pointed to some race of humans being higher evolved than others, we would have no choice but to accept it. There would be no reason to cry racism because science in principle is neutral.

However, this will never happen. Any scientist, even the most sincere picture perfect Michael Stivic type liberal will get fheat for making any racial suggestion of evolutionary superiority. Why is this?


Numerous verses in the Bible make clear that all men are (created)equal. Like Romans 10:12

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

The problem for the naturalist evolutionist who attempts to go in that direction, like James Watson, is that humans have an inner understanding that they are equal with all other humans. Human justice demands equality, not acceptance of social status based on race/ethnicity.
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Can you define "race" in this context please? Just for clarity of discussion. 
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@RoderickSpode
if objectively observed evidence pointed to some race of humans being higher evolved than others
Actually never mind my first post, here's where the problem is. Science doesn't deem any species "higher evolved." Do you mean better adapted to environments? That's not superior inherently, it's just better suited to wherever we find these races (presuming you're referring to black / white / asian). For example, certain genetic researchers have posited that as hominids migrated out of Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago, those who settled in certain areas began to adapt accordingly and resulted in the racial features we see today. For example, the peoples that moved to higher elevation or more extreme lattitudes, where sunlight is more intense or present throughout the year,  found themselves more exposed to UV rays, and the better reproductive opportunities ended up going to those with slimmer, more shielded eyes, and skin tones more suited to the level of radiation they were exposed to. It's pretty interesting research. 

 Human justice demands equality, not acceptance of social status based on race/ethnicity.
RIght, and understanding the evolutionary or genetic basis for what we call 'race' today means understanding different =/= inherently superior. It's simply about where your ancestors settled after leaving Africa, if they ever did. 
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@ludofl3x
Actually never mind my first post, here's where the problem is. Science doesn't deem any species "higher evolved." Do you mean better adapted to environments? That's not superior inherently, it's just better suited to wherever we find these races (presuming you're referring to black / white / asian). For example, certain genetic researchers have posited that as hominids migrated out of Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago, those who settled in certain areas began to adapt accordingly and resulted in the racial features we see today. For example, the peoples that moved to higher elevation or more extreme lattitudes, where sunlight is more intense or present throughout the year,  found themselves more exposed to UV rays, and the better reproductive opportunities ended up going to those with slimmer, more shielded eyes, and skin tones more suited to the level of radiation they were exposed to. It's pretty interesting research. 
The subject of definition of race is very interesting. I don't mind talking about it, although it's not really pertinent to the topic of this thread. Science doesn't deem any species "higher evolved" because science is a neutral non-personality. It's human individuals that promote and perpetuate scientific racism. That being said, I need to do some deflecting here to try and avoid the inevitable misunderstandings. What this thread is not:

1. A defining of race.

As I stated, there's no need. The definition of race, if it should even exist is blurry. What has been technically classified as different races does not match our American color-coded definition of race (black, white, brown, yellow, red).  For instance, peoples of India have been classified as Caucasian (white), but Americans consider Indians people of color. And there are different sub-ethnic groups in India that have different shades of skin color. Like the dark-skinned Tamils. And I question whether or not the classification of (Indian) Caucasian is a form of honorary white status due to British colonization politics. And people of Mexico have been classified as Caucasian, but our American color-code states they are brown. And Mexicans (Mestizos) in general are a mixture of white European, and Native American Indian which we call red.


2. A claim that this thread supports a scientific possibility that some races may be superior.

Again, no need. For some reason whenever a discussion comes up about scientific racism, someone feels the need to show how evidence doesn't
support racial hierarchy. Again, absolutely no need. I believe neutral scientific evidence does not support it, because science supports the bible's position that we are all one race of equals.

One of the problems is politics. When James Watson gave his relatively recent theory that blacks are less intelligent, than other races, the scientific community responded with counter-evidence to this claim. But, they also rendered him a racist. Do you see the problem there?


RIght, and understanding the evolutionary or genetic basis for what we call 'race' today means understanding different =/= inherently superior. It's simply about where your ancestors settled after leaving Africa, if they ever did. 
As I stated, humans have a natural tendency to claim a right to be equal. The question is, where does that feeling of rights to equal treatment come from? What law of nature provides this human right?

I believe it's instilled by the creator.
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@RoderickSpode
The term "scientific racism"...What does this mean exactly?....Just seems like yet another misinterpretation of the word science.....People are racist, everyone of them, even the ones who think that they are not.

Differentiating between Jew and Gentile is conditioned racism.....Because the human ability to perceive, store and remember data inevitably makes everyone racist,

The ongoing issue is with how racism manifests  in both, individuals and societies.

Bristol U.K.....They pulled down a racist statue and replaced it with a racist statue. D'oh!
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@RoderickSpode
Yes! It's probably been around for ages, profoundly manifested when Darwinian evolution came on the scene, and exists subtly today.
I think you may be making a very hollow statement in order to make un unfounded inference.

Yes, racism was rife "when" Darwinian evolution started but that in no way means that racism arose from Darwinian evolution, does it?
In fact there is no viable evidence whatsoever that racism is profoundly manifested by Darwinian evolution.

What we should be more concerned about is how religions promote the concept of elitism, in other words, devotees are led to believe taht they are of a higher order than those who don't believe or are from a different religion.

We can also consider the fact that religions foster and promote bigotry in the form of homophobia, sexism, anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia, anti married mothers.

Die-hard religious followers should think again about their own anti-social prejudices and bigotry before making futile attempts to smear the reputation of science.
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@zedvictor4
When James Watson gave his relatively recent theory that blacks are less intelligent, than other races, the scientific community responded with counter-evidence to this claim. But, they also rendered him a racist. Do you see the problem there?


So your issue isn't with science, it's with people, who incorrectly use science to support their personal racism, and there's no such thing as "more" evolved in any species including humans. I think we can agree, racist people are assholes, and that science does not in any way support the view that any one race is superior to any other. So...what's science doing in your topic, I don't get it. I don't see any problem with labeling someone who says racist things ("Black people are scientifically proven inferior to white people" for example) as a racist, and I'm not sure what you're getting at. "They" didn't render that guy a racist. HE rendered himself a racist, by, surprise, BEING A RACIST. 

As I stated, humans have a natural tendency to claim a right to be equal. The question is, where does that feeling of rights to equal treatment come from? What law of nature provides this human right?

I believe it's instilled by the creator.
Ok, so why then would the creator instill this apparent personal desire for equal treatment WITHOUT instilling the need to treat others equally in all people to go along with it? Why wouldn't a creator, if he wanted people to be treated equally, minimze the number of different dividing lines we can draw around groups of people? What makes you think the creator instilled it? My guess: incredulity. 

Humans are far from the only social animal that displays the desire to be treated fairly, or who understand the concept of fairness, or the concept of hierarchy or the concept of discrimination. It's a function of in-group versus out-group and control of resources from an evolutionary perspective. Lions don't like hyenas because hyenas want the food a lion hunted. We've conquered a lot of the resource manipulation problems but the drive to discriminate against a group that isn't US remains there, and we invent reasons to indulge it. Race, religion, sexual orientation, nationality, all of these are simply ways for us to maintain that drive to view our pack versus some other pack.  
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@RoderickSpode
Science doesnt support racism. The scientific view is that there is one race - the human race. 

Can science be twisted? Sure, but that's not an issue with the conclusions or the methodology - that's a quirk of human nature from which no ideology (including religion) is immune.

17 days later

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@ludofl3x

So your issue isn't with science, it's with people, who incorrectly use science to support their personal racism, and there's no such thing as "more" evolved in any species including humans. I think we can agree, racist people are assholes, and that science does not in any way support the view that any one race is superior to any other. So...what's science doing in your topic, I don't get it. I don't see any problem with labeling someone who says racist things ("Black people are scientifically proven inferior to white people" for example) as a racist, and I'm not sure what you're getting at. "They" didn't render that guy a racist. HE rendered himself a racist, by, surprise, BEING A RACIST. 
For the record, I'm sure he is racist. Most people have some degree of racism in them anyway, right?

But......how can you determine this from a scientific theory? Are you implying it's impossible for one race to be intellectually superior over another?

Tell me why you think he's racist.

Ok, so why then would the creator instill this apparent personal desire for equal treatment WITHOUT instilling the need to treat others equally in all people to go along with it? Why wouldn't a creator, if he wanted people to be treated equally, minimze the number of different dividing lines we can draw around groups of people? What makes you think the creator instilled it? My guess: incredulity. 

Humans are far from the only social animal that displays the desire to be treated fairly, or who understand the concept of fairness, or the concept of hierarchy or the concept of discrimination. It's a function of in-group versus out-group and control of resources from an evolutionary perspective. Lions don't like hyenas because hyenas want the food a lion hunted. We've conquered a lot of the resource manipulation problems but the drive to discriminate against a group that isn't US remains there, and we invent reasons to indulge it. Race, religion, sexual orientation, nationality, all of these are simply ways for us to maintain that drive to view our pack versus some other pack.  
What makes you think God hasn't instilled the need to treat others equally in all people to go along with it? This is like one of the major social issues we deal with. Of course we understand the need.

Are you wondering why someone who wants equal treatment may not give equal treatment? How about selfishness?
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@SkepticalOne

Science doesnt support racism. The scientific view is that there is one race - the human race. 
I know that. And have stated on numerous occasions that science is not a personality, therefore is completely innocent, therefore should not be addressed as being itself racist.

I think we're on the same page here. But...there are people that label another innocent non-personality of being guilty of possessing human inadequacies......intelligent design.

There's a woman who went on a diatribe about what intelligent design is around the Dover trial, attaching labels one would only do with a personality, or human organization.

Would you agree that that is wrong as well?


Can science be twisted? Sure, but that's not an issue with the conclusions or the methodology - that's a quirk of human nature from which no ideology (including religion) is immune.
Ludo Feels that religion is dangerous. Do you think religion itself is dangerous? Or, was it a quirk in human nature that lead to early European theocratic persecutions similar to scientific racism?

By the way, the reason I started this thread was due to a similar thread that hinted at scientific racism. I thought it would make for a good off-shoot of the earlier thread.

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@RoderickSpode
Do you think religion itself is dangerous?
No, not necessarily. I personally think it is dogmatism that is dangerous, especially when coupled with fundamentalism. Even this requires qualification- dogmatic adherence to fundamentalist Janism isn't generally going to be dangerous to society...

I think we're on the same page here. But...there are people that label another innocent non-personality of being guilty of possessing human inadequacies......intelligent design.

There's a woman who went on a diatribe about what intelligent design is around the Dover trial, attaching labels one would only do with a personality, or human organization.

Would you agree that that is wrong as well?

No. Intelligent design is a product of humanity built from bias and science/scientism. 

13 days later

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@SkepticalOne

No, not necessarily. I personally think it is dogmatism that is dangerous, especially when coupled with fundamentalism. Even this requires qualification- dogmatic adherence to fundamentalist Janism isn't generally going to be dangerous to society.
It sounds like you believe some specific religions are dangerous, others not?

What is your definition of fundamentalism?

No. Intelligent design is a product of humanity built from bias and science/scientism. 
Intelligent design is what that bright young 5 year old made in art class. Do remember that art project you did?

How in the world did an inanimate, non-entity get accused of possessing human traits?

Let's just say strictly for the sake of argument that there's a conspiracy to push Christianity into our public schools, and ultimately create an American theocracy. Why do you think the accusers in the Dover trial didn't just say "The Discovery Institute has a religious agenda, therefore they shouldn't be the organization to handle the subject in our schools"? Why are they attempting to treat intelligent design like a human organization?

Do you feel that the accusers in the Dover trial were free of bias?

It sure doesn't sound like it.
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@RoderickSpode
It sounds like you believe some specific religions are dangerous, others not?
Again, no. It is not religion that is dangerous, but a dogmatic adherence to a strict literal interpretation of some religious texts.

What is your definition of fundamentalism?

No. Intelligent design is a product of humanity built from bias and science/scientism. 
How in the world did an inanimate, non-entity get accused of possessing human traits?
Eh? I'm not sure what you're referencing. An ideological product of humanity wouldn't have human traits, and I've not suggested otherwise.

Why do you think the accusers in the Dover trial didn't just say "The Discovery Institute has a religious agenda, therefore they shouldn't be the organization to handle the subject in our schools"? Why are they attempting to treat intelligent design like a human organization?
These seem like loaded questions to me. I believe the Discovery Institute's agenda was shown, but having an agenda wasn't the problem - It's that the agenda was in violation of the law. As for your second question, I'm not aware of ID being treated as an organization.

Do you feel that the accusers in the Dover trial were free of bias?
Unless you're suggesting their bias was unlawful, I don't see the point here.

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Again, no. It is not religion that is dangerous, but a dogmatic adherence to a strict literal interpretation of some religious texts.
I'm sorry but the word "some" seems to suggest that some religions would be more dangerous than others. I know that you're suggesting a casual Christian or Muslim is no
danger until they take their religion seriously, or literally. Your reference to Jainism seems to imply that you feel some religions are not dangerous even when taken literally. Didn't you suggest a Jainist fundamentalist wouldn't be dangerous as a fundamentalist Christian?

What is the reason for saying "some religious texts"?

Also, your link gives 3 definitions. The last one could include anything (including militant atheism).


Eh? I'm not sure what you're referencing. An ideological product of humanity wouldn't have human traits, and I've not suggested otherwise.


I'm actually thinking of a number of comments that have been made. I'm guessing you agree with them. Here's one.


Intelligent Design Theory is a Trojan horse, intended to get religion into the schools by stealth, pretending to be science even though truly it is not.

How can a non-entity possess the intention of getting religion into schools by stealth, pretend to be science, etc.? It sounds like they're referring to a human organization. Don't you think?

In your opinion, is the Empire State Building a product of intelligent design?

These seem like loaded questions to me. I believe the Discovery Institute's agenda was shown, but having an agenda wasn't the problem - It's that the agenda was in violation of the law. As for your second question, I'm not aware of ID being treated as an organization.
LOL, it seems you're trying to change the story line. Yes, having an agenda was supposed to be the problem. And a major one at that. This is what Barbara Forrest spent all that time trying to prove. And the smoking gun evidence is based on simply misinterpreting the definition of the word "creationism" as originally used in the text book in question. The accusation is so pathetic, I don't see how they can use the term "smoking gun evidence" with a straight face. It's kind of funny because apparently when they hired Forrest to do her spin doctoring work, they didn't have evidence yet. So if that's the smoking gun evidence, they've lost.


The problem is the accusation of an agenda. A lot of noise meant to drown out any defense, clearing of the air, but no evidence. The Wedge document is no different than manifestos created by humanist/atheist groups who seek to influence society out of religion.


Unless you're suggesting their bias was unlawful, I don't see the point here.
Up until now I wasn't inquiring as to whether or not their bias would be unlawful. I was just asking if they were biased.

What do you think the DI did that was illegal?



26 days later

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@RoderickSpode
First off interesting topic. It is true that people will justify their immoral behavior and actions by any means necessary. It is also true that these justifications can be dangerous in that otherwise non racist but gullible or poorly educated people could potentially be convicted that racist opinions are scientifically correct. 
theoretically from a natural evolutionist standpoint, if objectively observed evidence pointed to some race of humans being higher evolved than others, we would have no choice but to accept it.
At least this can be addressed with reason in the face of some racist(s) attempting to justify racism. Just inform them that in order for some evidence of a difference between one race of humans and another a second race of contemporary (not extinct) humans would first have to be in evidence and that even if this were the case that saying some organism being more "highly" evolved is a nonstarter since natural selection has no intrinsic goal and also that all organisms have had the same length of time to evolve. Once you have pointed this out any argument they may make which does not address these issues becomes invalid whether they accept it or not. After all the goal is not to convince the unconvincable but only to offer a  counter argument that takes the power away from their fallacious argument so that they do not convince others who might otherwise hold racist views because of said argument. 

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@RoderickSpode
Human justice demands equality, not acceptance of social status based on race/ethnicity.
Well, the Hindus have been operating on acceptance of social status based on skin color for roughly 5000 years.
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@RoderickSpode
Yes, theoretically from a natural evolutionist standpoint, if objectively observed evidence pointed to some race of humans being higher evolved than others, we would have no choice but to accept it.
That's the funny thing.  Humans are actually becoming less evolved.

In 14 minutes and 43 seconds,
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@secularmerlin
I think the real question revolves around AXIOLOGY, are "smarter" humans more "valuable"?
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@RoderickSpode
How can a non-entity possess the intention of getting religion into schools by stealth, pretend to be science, etc.? It sounds like they're referring to a human organization. Don't you think?
The Intelligent Design HYPOTHESIS is not putting itself into books.

The motives referred to apply to the HUMANS who are promoting the idea.
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@RoderickSpode
In your opinion, is the Empire State Building a product of intelligent design?
Excellent point.

No natural science class on earth currently teaches architecture.
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@RoderickSpode
Up until now I wasn't inquiring as to whether or not their bias would be unlawful. I was just asking if they were biased.
SAMPLE BIAS IS UNIFORM.

NO HUMAN CAN ESCAPE.
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@3RU7AL
I think the real question revolves around AXIOLOGY, are "smarter" humans more "valuable"?
There it does matter considering the points I have raised but (IF) there were another race of humans to contrast ourselves with and (IF) those humans were argued to be of a noticeably different average intelligence (THEN) we would have to discuss both the relative value of intelligence and which yard stick we propose to use t ol make this determination. 

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...we would have to discuss both the relative value of intelligence and which yard stick we propose to use t ol make this determination. 
100%

I agree with you the "race" angle is a non-starter.

However, the idea that "intelligence" is genetic (AND) "intelligence" makes you "better" seems insidiously pervasive.

RICH = GOOD

POOR = BAD
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@3RU7AL
Not unlike saying

SEXUALLY LIBERATED = IMMORAL 

SECUALLY REPRESSED = MORAL

Just doesn't seem to logically follow especially since sexual repression can  do at least as much harm as sexual liberty.


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@3RU7AL
Not unlike saying

SEXUALLY LIBERATED = IMMORAL 

SECUALLY REPRESSED = MORAL

Just doesn't seem to logically follow especially since sexual repression can  do at least as much harm as sexual liberty.


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@secularmerlin
You seem to have the right idea.

RICH = BRIGHT

POOR = DIM
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@RoderickSpode
Ludo Feels that religion is dangerous. Do you think religion itself is dangerous? Or, was it a quirk in human nature that lead to early European theocratic persecutions similar to scientific racism?
IDEAS themselves are not DANGEROUS.

People should be free to believe whatever flat-earth/climate-change/santa-claus/easter-bunny mumbo-jumbo they wish.

This is FUNDAMENTAL.

THOUGHT =/= CRIME
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@RoderickSpode
One of the problems is politics. When James Watson gave his relatively recent theory that blacks are less intelligent, than other races, the scientific community responded with counter-evidence to this claim. But, they also rendered him a racist. Do you see the problem there?
Yes.

I see the problem.

The problem is ASSIGNING a LABEL to someone without their consent.

Individuals have a fundamental (ontological) right to NAME THEMSELVES (AND) LABEL THEMSELVES.

THIS IS A CORE ASPECT OF PERSONAL SOVEREIGNTY.
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@zedvictor4
Bristol U.K.....They pulled down a racist statue and replaced it with a racist statue. D'oh!
I'm not sure a statue is capable of racism.
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@swows9
What we should be more concerned about is how religions promote the concept of elitism, in other words, devotees are led to believe taht they are of a higher order than those who don't believe or are from a different religion.
Yes.

It's sort of an "OTHERISM".

On a related note, do you believe someone who completes specific physical tasks faster than their competitors is "better" than others?