It really is hard at times to support or even like the Police. Watch!

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How police 'brutally' intruded into a grieving family's sombre vigil just 30 minutes after the parents were told their daughter, 6, was being taken off her life support machine"

I brought tears to my eyes. These heartbroken couple were just coming to terms of losing their child and these fuckers couldn't keep their fucking big beaks out.




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It is hard at times, but I reminded of the philosophy of not judging people by the minority
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i think police reform isnt a bad thing but viciously lying about them like what some people do is what i am against and what i think back the blue means
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--> @Stephen
Are not the police run by leftists in the UK? They have a state hospital system to protect after all.
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Dickheads exist everywhere, and what goes one way also goes another.

How many people have been saved by non-dickhead police? Probably far more people than those who have had bad police experiences.

And are police the only bad guys? Not by a long shot. Take the BLM movement, completely disregarding the fact that officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which blacks are killed by police. Yet, they claim blacks are the victims of the police-black dynamic.

At the same time,  that doesn't mean there aren't brutal or discriminatory police. And I am sure you could make a reasonable argument that police tend to assume the worst when it comes to black suspects.

Stuff like this just reminds me that people see what they want to see. If you want to see systemic discrimination and brutality, that is what you will see; no matter what the facts say. If you want to think police are saints, then that will be your worldview as well. 

As for me, I hold the position that everyone is flawed, but the system probably isn't out to get you. You're not that important. 

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Are not the police run by leftists in the UK? They have a state hospital system to protect after all.

I am not a lunatic that wants to defund the police and I do have amount of respect for them overall. They do have a shit job to and it appears that their hands are being tied tighter by the day , especially in London where the Muslim  mayor Sadiq Khan seems quite happy to sit back and watch blacks killing other blacks while antifa go about damage and destroy anything and everything  in sight without fear of arrest. The toppling of the Edward Colston statue is an example where the police just stood right by and watching these bastards do as they wanted. It took a public outcry to get just one of these bastards involved to be arrested.

But I honestly do not know where the police themselves stand in my country any more.That's the truth. One day they are standing on the side lines watching these BLM/ Anifa rioters vandalise statues and pull them down and deface building and are retreating from confrontation as they did en mass in Brixton when attempting to beak up a street party during lock-down. The next they are telling others defending these buildings and statues to move on or be arrested. The ex soldiers defending the Churchill statue is a good example. This is not  to mention a Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service in London, Cressida Dick who can't;p apologising to BLM and anyone legally arrested by her officers.

But all said, I believe this was an unnecessary arrest of a grieving father who went on to suffer an heart attack and rushed into surgery the very next day.
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As for me, I hold the position that everyone is flawed, but the system probably isn't out to get you. You're not that important. 
ok, but if those "flawed" (ie racist) people are in charge of discipline, hiring and promoting, then the problem becomes systemic. IE the problem people don't get punished and weeded out. They get a free hand, if not promoted and rewarded. Thus creating a culture among police where racism and abuse is not only tolerated, but encouraged. 

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Let's use the US as an example, since that is the system that gets the most hate.

As you say, systemic racism is racism tolerated within or perpetuated by the government. 

But the US system does neither. You act as if overt racism is not something that will get you fired before you even make it to a position of true power (with rare exceptions, which in a country on the scale of the US are easily outweighed to the point of insignificance). Racism is a campaign-killer in the US for a reason, and as for police, there is no evidence that officers target black civilians at a rate higher than their per capita crime rate. 

You also ignore the fact that the US federal gov employs a disproportionately  HIGH number of minority Americans: 
“The percentage of minorities in the Federal Workforce increased by 0.4 percent to 35.3 percent in FY 2014 from 34.9 percent in FY 2013, which is notably greater than the percentage of the Civilian Labor Force that is comprised by minorities (32.5 percent).”
Doesn't reflect systemic hiring discrimination to me. 
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 Racism is a campaign-killer in the US for a reason
why would you think that? trump called mexicans rapists and still won. Racism (as long as you can hide it behind a veneer of something else) is fine with alot of people. 

and as for police, there is no evidence that officers target black civilians at a rate higher than their per capita crime rate. 
what about things like stop and frisk? That was a policy that was almost exclusively aimed at harassing people of color. The fact that this policy was allowed to happen at all, let alone continue to be defended to this day, shows you that racist policies are not unusual. 

You also ignore the fact that the US federal gov employs a disproportionately  HIGH number of minority Americans: 
these stats don't tell me where they work. If the Federal government hires all minority janitors that does not mean there isn't an issue with racism. 

Doesn't reflect systemic hiring discrimination to me. 
that stat doesn't prove that. For all I know the vast majority of those are entry level, minimum wage jobs. It's hiring in positions of power that actually matters. 
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why would you think that? trump called mexicans rapists and still won. Racism (as long as you can hide it behind a veneer of something else) is fine with alot of people. 
No, he didn't say all Mexicans are rapists. He said rapists are coming through the southern border illegally, and that is true. More specifically, human trafficking (and large amounts of sex trafficking with it). Whether you like it or not, criminal operations in the US are largely fueled by our open border with Mexico. 

what about things like stop and frisk? That was a policy that was almost exclusively aimed at harassing people of color. The fact that this policy was allowed to happen at all, let alone continue to be defended to this day, shows you that racist policies are not unusual. 
No, the policy was not made or aimed at harassing people of color. It was created to save lives. In fact, it saves mostly colored lives. Police in New York stopping colored people at a higher rate can be chalked up to a few things.

- Black people disproportionately commit crime, whether you like it or not. This means more witnesses report the suspects as black, more blacks get frisked and questioned, and police patrol black residential areas more. BJS shares more insight:
“From 1980 to 2008, the homicide offending rate for blacks (34.4 per 100,000) was almost 8 times higher than the rate for whites (4.5 per 100,000).”

- As preemptive caution. There is tension from previously stated disproportionate crime. Officers are killed by blacks at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which blacks are killed by police. The caution is somewhat justified. 

Regardless, most violence in the black community is black on black. So ironically, you are accusing a policy of being racist when it disproportionately saves black lives. 

these stats don't tell me where they work. If the Federal government hires all minority janitors that does not mean there isn't an issue with racism. 

Let's assume all of them were janitors for a second. You're telling me racist people in power want to hire a disproportionately high amount of black janitors? You're really reaching here bud. If they were racist, they may hire a proportionate amount of black janitors, but disproportionately high? You can't be serious. 

Anyway, when the sole platform of many campaigns is "I'm a minority vote for me," I think you're out of the loop on this one. 

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No, he didn't say all Mexicans are rapists. He said rapists are coming through the southern border illegally, and that is true.
ok, but that's a bit like screaming "Teachers are rapists!!!". There are teachers that are rapists. Most are not. So saying it is extremely inaccurate. And making it about race makes it extremely racist. 

No, the policy was not made or aimed at harassing people of color. It was created to save lives.
it was made to unconstitutionally search and harass people. It was targeted at minority communities. Therefore it was a policy designed to illegally harass minorities. Forgive me for not cheering for the government violating the constitution to target people of color for harassment because they thought they knew what was best for them. 

Let's assume all of them were janitors for a second. You're telling me racist people in power want to hire a disproportionately high amount of black janitors? You're really reaching here bud. If they were racist, they may hire a proportionate amount of black janitors, but disproportionately high? You can't be serious. 
i don't understand your disbelief. Racist people are fine with having people of color doing manual labor. In fact, that's kind of where this all started, white people importing black people to do manual labor. 

Anyway, when the sole platform of many campaigns is "I'm a minority vote for me," I think you're out of the loop on this one. 
100% agree. Being a minority is not a credential. I mean look at kamela harris. She is awful. She still laughs about how she tried to arrest parents over truancy. 

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You act as if overt racism is not something that will get you fired before you even make it to a position of true power.

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 In fact, that's kind of where this all started, white people importing black people to do manual labor. 
Most southern states after 150 years have yet to recover from the economic debacle of slavery, which was the number one reason why they got their ass kicked in the combat feild and had their homes burned to the ground. 

The only relief the American poor has had lately was when we stopped importing illegal labor on a grand scale from Mexico.
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i'm not really sure that any part of that was a response to anything I said. It seems to be an attempt to re-frame a conversation about domestic racism into a conversation about trade policy. 
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ok, but that's a bit like screaming "Teachers are rapists!!!". There are teachers that are rapists. Most are not. So saying it is extremely inaccurate. And making it about race makes it extremely racist. 

You're the one who made it about race.

it was made to unconstitutionally search and harass people. It was targeted at minority communities. Therefore it was a policy designed to illegally harass minorities. Forgive me for not cheering for the government violating the constitution to target people of color for harassment because they thought they knew what was best for them. 
As for it's constitutionality, I can't really comment because I don't know the nuances of the court case on the policy.  The rest of this I have already refuted.

i don't understand your disbelief. Racist people are fine with having people of color doing manual labor.
Only when they aren't competing against white applicants. Yet, out of the white applicants and the black applicants they chose a disproportionate amount of black applicants, and yet they are still racist towards black applicants? It's really a nonsense argument. 

And when you drop the assumption that they are all doing manual labor (they are definitely not, we've had a black president for Pete's sake) the whole thing falls apart even further.

100% agree. Being a minority is not a credential. I mean look at kamela harris. She is awful. She still laughs about how she tried to arrest parents over truancy. 
Yup, people should be judged based on merit.

Anyway, my main point with that is that if people find success running for office on the "I'm a minority vote for me" platform, then racism in politics is a very moot issue. 
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ok, but if those "flawed" (ie racist)
Are you saying that this unfortunate incident was all about race?   
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Are you saying that this unfortunate incident was all about race?   
sorry, no I was referring to police action in general. It is entirely possible that it had something to do with this incident as well. One of the officers yelled "You’re acting like an animal, it’s disgusting". I have to wonder if they would yell things like that at a white person for trying to stay with their terminally ill child. 

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You're the one who made it about race.
so saying people coming from mexico are rapists isn't making it about race? Trump made it a bout race with his dog whistles. 

As for it's constitutionality, I can't really comment because I don't know the nuances of the court case on the policy.  The rest of this I have already refuted.
The police intentionally targeted minority groups. That is by definition a racist policy. They stopped them and assaulted them without any cause and without the person having done anything wrong. 

Only when they aren't competing against white applicants. Yet, out of the white applicants and the black applicants they chose a disproportionate amount of black applicants, and yet they are still racist towards black applicants? It's really a nonsense argument. 
you haven't shown any evidence there was competition though. Maybe they just got alot more applications from black people for shit jobs. Your stat proves nothing. 

And when you drop the assumption that they are all doing manual labor (they are definitely not, we've had a black president for Pete's sake) the whole thing falls apart even further.
there are some black people who are hired for higher level jobs, so pointing to a few cases of successful black people is just a distraction. But the stat you provided does not have the nuance to be useful. It doesn't show the number of black people in positions of power. It's like saying that plantations had like 90% black workers, so clearly plantations were great places for black people to work. 

Anyway, my main point with that is that if people find success running for office on the "I'm a minority vote for me" platform, then racism in politics is a very moot issue. 
I think that having diverse candidates is a good thing. If government is disproportionately made up of old white guys, then it cannot possibly reflect the needs or wants of it's people. However it is also critically important to look at what the candidate believes and wants to do. Electing a black person that believes in all the same failed policies as all the other old guard neo-libs doesn't do anyone any good. 
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Are you saying that this unfortunate incident was all about race?   
sorry, no I was referring to police action in general. It is entirely possible that it had something to do with this incident as well.

As well as what?


One of the officers yelled "You’re acting like an animal, it’s disgusting".


 It is disgusting. And I believe the man called those officers animals too and before the officer said he was acting "like" an animal. Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said? 


I have to wonder if they would yell things like that at a white person for trying to stay with their terminally ill child. 

 In the case of these officers and the woman in particular , I am pretty convinced she would would have, she came across as rude, indifferent, abrupt and soulless. Maybe that is the stress of the job? But I didn't detect a single bit of racism. Where as it appears that you will pull racism out of thin air at every given chance.


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As well as what?
as well as the other terrible things done by police, which was what I was primarily referring to. things like the murder of george floyd. 

It is disgusting. And I believe the man called those officers animals too and before the officer said he was acting "like" an animal. Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said? 
the man was being dragged from the bedside of his child who was about to die. i can think of few things in life that would be more horrifying than being dragged away from your child so that they can kill your child in peace (i understand the hospital's position, I'm trying to highlight what his opinion probably would be). What kind of man wouldn't fight to try to protect his child and be with them?

In the case of these officers and the woman in particular , I am pretty convinced she would would have, she came across as rude, indifferent, abrupt and soulless. Maybe that is the stress of the job? But I didn't detect a single bit of racism. Where as it appears that you will pull racism out of thin air at every given chance.
as i said, i don't know if she is just a shitty person, or if race played a part in it. It is hard to say. I am not pretending like I know the answer to that since i don't know enough about the officer in question. But calling someone an animal is dehumanizing behavior, which is common in racist people.

Alot of time racism comes across in giving different treatment to people based on race. IE being comforting or polite to a white guy but dismissive and abrupt with a black guy. This difference in treatment then elicits a different response (ie you are more combative if you are treated like shit). The police then use that combativeness to justify them treating them like shit. 
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As well as what?
things like the murder of george floyd. 

There is new video evidence concerning the violent druggy and crook and ex jailbird Floyd.  Strange the press never released this part of the arrest.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQrMYFHzbs

I think we are looking at an requital and more riots when that happens.



Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said? 
What kind of man wouldn't fight to try to protect his child and be with them?

I didn't ask you that.

In the case of these officers and the woman in particular , I am pretty convinced she would would have, she came across as rude, indifferent, abrupt and soulless. Maybe that is the stress of the job? But I didn't detect a single bit of racism. Where as it appears that you will pull racism out of thin air at every given chance.
as i said, i don't know if she is just a shitty person, or if race played a part in it.

So then why at all did you leap at the opportunity to bring race into this conversation IF you don't know either way? 

 calling someone an animal is dehumanizing behavior, which is common in racist people.
So you are saying that the police officer/s was dehumanised .


Alot of time racism comes across in giving different treatment to people based on race. IE being comforting or polite to a white guy but dismissive and abrupt with a black guy. This difference in treatment then elicits a different response (ie you are more combative if you are treated like shit). The police then use that combativeness to justify them treating them like shit. 

 I have had police officers act towards me ( a white male) in that way.  when my house was robbed they turned up and they appears to not give a shite . They were rude, indifferent and dismissive in the sense that they told me and Mrs, that there wasn't much chance of apprehending the perps as there was no blood left at the scene. The police woman was white didn't say much but asked for two sugars in her tea, the man doing all the mouthing (and didn't take sugar at all) was black. Do you think he was being  indifferent, abrupt and soulless because me and Mrs are white?  



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Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said? 
What kind of man wouldn't fight to try to protect his child and be with them?
I didn't ask you that.
but your question was irrelevant. the man being dragged away from his dying child would certainly think they are. And I wouldn't blame him for thinking that. If they were dragging me away from my dying child I would likely think the same. 

So then why at all did you leap at the opportunity to bring race into this conversation IF you don't know either way? 
christopher and I were having a discussion that included other things. Not just this one incident. The comment you are clinging to was not about this specific incident. 

So you are saying that the police officer/s was dehumanised 
I'm saying a man was being dragged away from his child who was dying. In that situation, I am certain I would call the police nasty things too. But police are supposed to be trained on how to handle this stuff. They should be able to deal with this situation better emotionally than a man whose child is about to die. 

 Do you think he was being  indifferent, abrupt and soulless because me and Mrs are white?  
maybe. or maybe they were just dicks. Again, I don't know enough about the situation. I never said I believed this situation was about race. I said it might be a factor. So why are you still grinding on this?
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We're just going in circles on this one, I'll just end it here before it starts to devolve from a productive discussion to something worse

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Do you believe these officers were animals, as the man said? 
What kind of man wouldn't fight to try to protect his child and be with them?
I didn't ask you that.
but your question was irrelevant.

Then why did you even mention that this man was likened to an animal AFTER he had called these police officers "animals", if it is "irrelevant"?

So then why at all did you leap at the opportunity to bring race into this conversation IF you don't know either way? 
christopher and I were having a discussion that included other things.

Yes and you sprang on the opportunity to bring race into the conversation. Why?

So you are saying that the police officer/s was dehumanised 
I'm saying a man was being dragged away from his child who was dying.

No, what you said was : "  But calling someone an animal is dehumanizing behavior, which is common in racist people."  These officers were also called "animals" was that dehumanising? 

This is what is common among racist and intolerant people :  watch this pleasant chap  describe "animals"  to his  audience. 

  
Mehdi Hasan - Animals
In that situation, I am certain I would call the police nasty things too.

I agree and this I am sure, cuts both ways under these stressful circumstances. 



But police are supposed to be trained on how to handle this stuff.

No. What the police are trained to do is uphold the law. Here in the UK is all the police have to do is up hold the Queens peace. They do not have to be lawyers , care workers, social workers or medical mediators.

They should be able to deal with this situation better emotionally than a man whose child is about to die. 

I too believe it maybe could have been handled a little more delicately than the abrupt manner in which it was managed.  But this wasn't a racial issue as much as you are begging it to be. 





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Then why did you even mention that this man was likened to an animal AFTER he had called these police officers "animals", if it is "irrelevant"?
you've misunderstood me. Your question was whether I think the police were animals, that is irrelevant. The man being dragged away from his dying child so the hospital could end his child's life had very good reason to say nasty things about them.

christopher and I were having a discussion that included other things.
Yes and you sprang on the opportunity to bring race into the conversation. Why?
because we were discussing events relating to police, but not precisely relating to this one case. 

No, what you said was : "  But calling someone an animal is dehumanizing behavior, which is common in racist people."  These officers were also called "animals" was that dehumanising? 
sure, but there is a massive discrepancy in circumstance. The man was being dragged away so they could kill his child (again, this is what he likely was thinking not my opinion). The police officers had no emotional stake in these events. So the man being incredibly upset is obviously warranted and I'm sure I would have said nasty things about those police officers too in his place. The police being dehumanizing to the man trying to protect his child is a very different circumstance. 

I agree and this I am sure, cuts both ways under these stressful circumstances. 
the police had no emotional attachment to these circumstances. I'm sure they were annoyed about having to drag him out, but no one was killing their children. 

But police are supposed to be trained on how to handle this stuff.
No. What the police are trained to do is uphold the law. Here in the UK is all the police have to do is up hold the Queens peace. They do not have to be lawyers , care workers, social workers or medical mediators.
I'm almost certain that UK police officers are trained to defuse tension and resolve issues without violence as much as possible. They are not trained to insult and demean people. 

I too believe it maybe could have been handled a little more delicately than the abrupt manner in which it was managed.  But this wasn't a racial issue as much as you are begging it to be. 
you either misunderstanding me or misrepresenting what I have said. I have never claimed that I know racism played a role here. I suggested it might, but was clear I did not know. I don't why you are so insistent that my point was that this event was about racism. I never said that.