What are right-wing/conservative politics if not the preservation of social heirarchy?

Author: armoredcat ,

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  • armoredcat
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    Or the preservation of traditional social institutions. Argued with ethang5 over this. Really curious how you could define this any differently.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @armoredcat
    preservation of freedoms from a tyrannical government
  • armoredcat
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Most political ideologies could be described as a maximization of freedom depending on your worldview. Freedom is subjective. What constitutes heirarchy and social structures is far less subjective.
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @armoredcat
    What are right-wing/conservative politics if not the preservation of social heirarchy?
    Or the preservation of traditional social institutions. Argued with ethang5 over this. Really curious how you could define this any differently.
    I think there is a misconstrued view by yourself that puts right wing and conservative politics in a catch all bag. 

    The essence of conservative politics is family. 

    The essence of progressive politics is society. 

    The former value family over and above society. The latter value society over and above family. 

    Note that these positions do not necessarily devalue either family or society - but place a higher value on the one over the other. Hence - all politics is inescapably hierarchical. It really only becomes a question of which hierarchy is going to succeed or not. 

    Conservative politics at its extreme end is ultimately nationalistic. Hence why race is often cast both negatively by the Left and almost sanctified by the Right. 
    Progressive politics at its extreme end is ultimately elitist. Hence why progressive education is often touted negatively and almost sanctified as well depending upon who you are. 

    I take the view that both extremes are evil. Marx and Hitler are the same. Yet the same errors exist even as we move towards the center, just in more diluted forms.  

    The conservative takes the view - that unless it is broken, we don't need to fix it. 
    The progressive takes the view - it is broken and can't be fixed so lets do something new. 

    Both views are in error.  The system is not broken. It has problems which need to be and can be fixed. Hence both the conservative and the progressive are in error. 

    The Conservative typically does not see the problems - it glosses over them. The Progressive only sees the problems and glosses over all of the genuinely good things. 

    To fix problems - the Conservative does so very slowly - almost to the point of resisting the remedy. The Progressive just cancels everything - and refuses to listen. 

    Take the gun laws in America. Is the system of guns broken? No, but it has lots of problems - too many people getting killed is just one problem. So what is their remedy. Blame it on the progressives. Blind to the problems - regulation can assist. The progressive on the other hand says- get rid of all guns - guns are evil. But this blindly forgets that guns are useful and actually save lives. 

    The conservative rests his rights on the family - on individual private rights. The Progressive rests his rights on the society - public rights. 

    And both rights are held in tension and both are good rights. Whose hierarchy succeeds at any time is always going to be an issue. 


  • zedvictor4
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    --> @armoredcat @Greyparrot
    A. How lengthy does something need to be, to qualify as a tradition?

    B. Some would say that "Right Wing  Conservative Politics" are tyrannical.

    C. Freedom is expectancy based upon conditioning (what you're used to)....So  variations in levels of freedom will inevitably manifest objectively.

    D. Social hierarchy preserves itself.

    E. Mr Ethan is rigidly conditioned, but fun to debate with. So hopefully he will be back soon.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Some would say that "Right Wing  Conservative Politics" are tyrannical.

    I am sure King George III said that.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @armoredcat
    i ask the question a lot and modern day "conservatives" dont want to fix anything or preserve anything, there liberals but 10 years behind
  • armoredcat
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Is the preservation of family not a traditional social structure? Is supporting the traditional family over other family models not heirarchical? Is capitalism not a right wing structure? 

    I wholeheartedly reject the notion that progressive politics end in elitism. It is no coincidence that the further Left you go, the more anti-elitist and egalitarian you become. The opposite is true with the right. Conservatives want to preserve traditions and heirarchies. As you get further right, you begin to want to enforce these traditions and heirarchies until you eventually reach Fascism. Heirarchy is not a universal feature of politics. 
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Greyparrot
    preservation of freedoms from a tyrannical government
    Please explain how "the conservatives" prevented The Patriot Act.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @armoredcat
    Most political ideologies could be described as a maximization of freedom depending on your worldview.
    FREEDOM AND EQUALITY ARE INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    The former value family over and above society. The latter value society over and above family. 
    All humans follow these three simple rules.

    (1) PROTECT YOURSELF
    (2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
    (3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY

    Any "political ideology" only serves to reinforce this primal hierarchy.

    Suggesting that "liberals" don't value their own families is a ridiculously cartoonish straw-man.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Conservative politics at its extreme end is ultimately nationalistic.
    How is this remotely "family focused"??
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @armoredcat
    The left weaponizes government as a mean to become authoritarian and gain power. The more power to individual states, the more freedom is happening. There are issues, but radical left policies will cause suffering for more people
  • SupaDudz
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    The left weaponizes liberalism into attacking you for what you believe. The left will destroy you if you do not believe their ways, play the race card, and do everything to disown and cast you for not believing what they believe. It's an American tragedy. Since when did not believing in something become a hate crime. Since when did holding a flag supporting police become a hate symbol. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a police lover, I think their system is ultimately flawed and needs reform to stop corruption, but showing solidarity isn't a hate symbol
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    The conservative rests his rights on the family - on individual private rights.
    EVERYONE values (their own) FAMILY and (their own) "individual private rights".

    The Progressive rests his rights on the society - public rights. 
    ONLY CORPORATIONS CARE ABOUT PUBLIC RIGHTS.

    RICH PEOPLE WANT TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS-QUO.

    POOR PEOPLE WANT TO FLIP THE TABLE AND TAKE THEIR CHANCES WITH SOMETHING NEW.
  • SupaDudz
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    You like Trump= racist, homophobe
    Hold a Police Flag= racist, homophobe
    Stand instead of Kneel= racist, homophobe
    Not Politically Active= racist, homophobe

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @armoredcat
    Heirarchy is not a universal feature of politics. 
    WE MUST DEMAND HOLACRACY + RCV.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @SupaDudz
    The left weaponizes government as a mean to become authoritarian and gain power. The more power to individual states, the more freedom is happening. There are issues, but radical left policies will cause suffering for more people
    "TWO PARTY" = ONE PARTY

    IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH "PARTY" IS IN POWER.

    THEY BOTH WANT THE EXACT SAME THING, MORE POWER.
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Everyone wants power. It's about what they do with that power that matters
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @SupaDudz
    The left weaponizes liberalism into attacking you for what you believe.
    So does "the right".

    Our OWNERS are very good at keeping the poor working-class people pitted against each other.

    The poor lefties scream their heads off about how EVIL and STUPID conservatives are.

    And the poor conservatives love to scream their heads off about how EVIL and STUPID the lefties are.

    MEANWHILE, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CONTINUES TO STRIP OUR CIVIL RIGHTS.

    It doesn't matter who sits in the office.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @SupaDudz
    Everyone wants power. It's about what they do with that power that matters
    THEY ALL DO THE EXACT SAME THING.

    THEY CONTINUOUSLY RAISE THE BARRIER TO ENTRY FOR THE ELITE CLUB.

    THEY CONTINUOUSLY INCREASE FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT POWER.

    THEY CONTINUOUSLY STRIP THE POOR OF THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS.
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @3RU7AL
    MEANWHILE, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CONTINUES TO STRIP OUR CIVIL RIGHTS.

    The left wants to give more power to the federal government
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @3RU7AL
    i agree with post #20
  • armoredcat
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    --> @SupaDudz
    I came here to talk about what conservatism/right-wing politics means. I don't want to talk about the left. Cancel culture is stupid, you're right. It's gone on long before progressives attatched to it (see Anita Sarkeesian) but you're right. I don't know what the relevance of that is. 

    You seem to have two flaws in your definition of Conservatism. 

    One is that more government = less freedom - this is false. Say you live in a society where slavery is commonplace. Now the govt. bans it. This society is now more free despite government intervention. 

    This applies to Socialism as well. Non-tankie socialists will rarely tell you that they're anti-freedom, they just think about freedom in a different way. Socialists don't think about  a person being able to start a business where they're a CEO as freedom - when they think about freedom, they think about workers being able to negotiate on equal grounds with people. Socialists will also tell you that if you're living on the street in the rain without any food, you're not free. Socialists will, too, tell you that the state allowing megacorporations to dominate people and prices is not making anyone more free except for the higher-ups in said corporations. 

    The second mistake you make is the claim that Conservatives allow for less government than Liberals, which is false. Libertarians do, but Conservatives don't. Conservatives are the ones who want to have the state increase it's prescence on our borders. Conservatives want to build up our military and often want to push it into other countries. Conservatives were the ones who didn't want gay people to be allowed to marry until that position became untenable. Conservatives are the ones who want to restrict  your access to abortion. Conservatives are the ones who don't want to allow a doctor to assist you in your death when you are so sick that you don't want to live anymore. Conservatives fall all over themselves justifying Israel, a militaristic state that is pushing into the borders of another country. Conservatives don't want smaller government - they just want to push the government somewhere else. 

    Your "giving stuff to the states = freedom" thing is false. Once again, decentralization just moves power, it doesn't remove it. The people in my country will have more rights if I don't let individual states restrict freedoms, for example. 

    I'm bothered that a common Conservative response to issues is to complain about the left, which I hope you're not doing here. I can't have a constructive conversation on systemic racism on this site for example without the inevitable righty coming in to tell me about Biden's crime bill or some shit. 
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @SupaDudz
    You like Trump= racist, homophobe
    Hold a Police Flag= racist, homophobe
    Stand instead of Kneel= racist, homophobe
    Not Politically Active= racist, homophobe
    DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT AN AD HOMINEM ATTACK IS??

    "Conservatives" have been arguing for years that if you're not a "christian" then you're automatically untrustworthy and EVIL.

    "Conservatives" have been arguing for years that if you're poor, "IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT".

    "Conservatives" have been arguing for years that EVERYONE IN PRISON DESERVES TO BE THERE.

    And that last one's especially funny when you see this - - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTn1WPoZaVM&feature=youtu.be&t=25

    "Conservatives" "objective moral values" are a JOKE.