Evidence in a religious forum

Author: Tradesecret ,

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  • Tradesecret
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    Recently, and probably longer than that - in the religious forum it seems that some people think that they are the arbiter of all wisdom of what is evidence and what is not.

    It seems to be quite ok  to use the bible by non-believers as evidence of how bad and evil God is when they want to make a point about the evils of religion. So at that point it is considered ok to be evidence. 

    But then when the same people ask for evidence for why religious people believe certain things - and they use the bible as evidence - it gets rejected. 

    You cannot on one hand use the bible as evidence to prove God is evil and then reject other people's use of the bible as evidence in relation to matters of the same God and religion. You cannot use the bible as evidence to say God is a murderous serial killer and also reject its usage as evidence for God creating the world in six days. That is just dumb and inconsistent and unhelpful. 

    Fact is - if you think God is evil because you are using the bible as evidence - then you can't reject it as evidence for anything else relating to religion or God. 

    And when you do - you make a mockery out of what is evidence and what it is not. And more than that - you make a mockery and fool  of yourself. 




  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I think this whole "evil bible" genre is borderline religious fanatacism, and once they start meeting at Denny's Sunday morning.....a religious (and highly dogmatic) cult.

    In other words, in contrast to "for the bible tells me so", it's "for Richard Dawkins, The Atheist Experience, Aron Ra, The Freedom From Religion Foundation, PBS/Nova, etc., tells me so".

    One interesting thing I've found on the internet are discussion forums where an atheist will get help with counter arguments to Christians they're debating on other forums. It's as if the truth is not as important as seemingly winning an argument.

  • Dr.Franklin
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    You cannot use the Bible to show that God is evil but reject the other cialims in it

    good point
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    It seems to be quite ok  to use the bible by non-believers as evidence of how bad and evil God is when they want to make a point about the evils of religion. So at that point it is considered ok to be evidence. 
    Only if it is the agreed upon source material for assessing the character of the hypothetical god under discussion. If for example you had been told to refer to the book rather than to any Christian(s) in order to make such determinations. In much the same way one might use Star Wars movies to assess Han Solo's competence as an escape artist even while accepting that Star Wars is not useful in determining any facit of reality because it is a work of fiction. I am perfectly happy to entertain hypothetical situations and discuss the characteristics of fictional characters. 

    In other words even if there is no Yahweh the figure presented in the bible can still be discussed using the source material as a guide for said discussion. 
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    You cannot use the Bible to show that God is evil but reject the other cialims in it

    good point
    You cannot use Harry Potter series to show that Voldemort is evil but reject the idea that magic is real.

    Good point.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @secularmerlin
    the Bible never admits itself to be fiction
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    the Bible never admits itself to be fiction
    Harry potter does not implicitly state that it is a work of fiction within the text we simply accept that it is fictional. So either the bible is fictional or it is not but in either case its contents can be used to determine the moral characteristics of the Yahweh as described within. I do not need to do more than acknowledge that there is a book and it says some stuff in order to discuss the stuff it says.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @secularmerlin
    so what is with harry potter and the Bible? 

    and you are right

    if it was real, you can not deny haryy potter and deny truths about the book
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    so what is with harry potter and the Bible? 
    It is known as an analogy. It is an argument meant to show a corollary such as whether one can use written accounts as evidence for the characteristics of characters described within whether or not those characters actually exist.

    and you are right

    if it was real, you can not deny haryy potter and deny truths about the book
    Excellent. Glad you accept the premise. Now all you have to do is demonstrate somehow that the bible is not a fictitious book in order to make the case that we cannot deny "truths" about the book. Otherwise like Harry Potter we can simply assess it as a fiction.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @secularmerlin
    but the analogy is withiut merit as the writer admits it is a story
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Then you must be a Mormon, right? Because Joseph Smith doesn't admit the book of Mormon, which he transcribed from divine inspiration in the 19th century, is fiction.  According to him, it's true. And to all the Mormons. The point SecMer is making is that a book doesn't have to be a true story to evaluate the characters in it. And your point, "You cannot use the Bible to show that God is evil but reject the other cialims in it," would reflexively mean that to accept any claim in the bible, one must accept all claims in it as fact, not pick and choose which ones you like to draw a character in some way that is otherwise inconsistent with the book. 


  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    but the analogy is withiut merit as the writer admits it is a story
    I admit that I consider the bible is just a story. Now what? If we hold different views on the subject how do we resolve this difference of opinion?

    More importantly since I can make moral judgements concerning Voldemort even whith the understanding that it is just a story I would still be able to make moral judgements about the Yahweh even though the bible would appear to be just a story. That rather invalidates the basic complaint you have with regards to atheists (or indeed people of faith who do not share your opinion that the Yahweh is the one true god) using the book to discuss the Yahweh's moral characteristics while simultaneously rejecting it as a valid claim about reality. 
  • n8nrgmi
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    yeah i'm disappointed in the opening poster. illogical post. for reasons others have pointed out. 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @secularmerlin
    but the moral judgements go against the evidence in the Bible that is true
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @ludofl3x
    im not a mormom
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Why not? That book claims to be true, unlike the bible we know who the actual author was, we can corroborate his existence, their movement built a massive following, and his book is internally consistent, meets all the same criteria laid out for the Christian bible. Also, do you accept all claims in the bible as fact?  
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @ludofl3x
    because IM NOT MORMON
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    You have it backwards: You are not Mormon BECAUSE.... {reason}. Is the reason "my parents aren't mormons, they're Christians, and I'm a Christian?"
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @ludofl3x
    i dont have anything backwards
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Whether the bible is partly or completely fictional I am of the intractable opinion that genocide, the buying and selling of people as property and the convicting people of thought crime are all immoral. Does your opinion on these subjects really differ appreciably from mine?
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @secularmerlin
    probably not but im sure its  nothing

    God loves you
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    God loves you
    Bald assertion. Also it cheapens the actual love I feel for my family who observable reciprocate my love. I would actually very much appreciate if you didn't say things like this to me. 
  • secularmerlin
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    Whether the bible is partly or completely fictional I am of the intractable opinion that genocide, the buying and selling of people as property and the convicting people of thought crime are all immoral. Does your opinion on these subjects really differ appreciably from mine?
    probably not but im sure its  nothing
    Then I may have bad news for you about the Yahweh as described in the old testament. 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @secularmerlin
    how would it cheapen you love with your family?

    Then I may have bad news for you about the Yahweh as described in the old testament. 
    like what?
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    how would it cheapen you love with your family?
    Because unlike the love you are alluding to I can actually tell it is there and nothing is asked of me in return for it.
    Whether the bible is partly or completely fictional I am of the intractable opinion that genocide, the buying and selling of people as property and the convicting people of thought crime are all immoral. Does your opinion on these subjects really differ appreciably from mine?
    probably not but im sure its  nothing


    Then I may have bad news for you about the Yahweh as described in the old testament. 
    like what?
    Like that he seems to be ok with genocide, the buying and selling of people as property and the convicting of people for thought crime. At least according to the source material which says the same thing about the Yahweh whether or not the Yahweh actually exists.