Evidence in a religious forum

Author: Tradesecret

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#121
secularmerlin
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@Dr.Franklin
I'm not proposing any god(s) good or evil (and again I really prefer moral or immoral but you insist on using the word evil) actually exists I am only assessing the character of the likely fictional character Yahweh as described in the old testament. 
#122
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@secularmerlin
but what if it did exist
#123
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@Dr.Franklin
That is called a hypothetical situation. It is what we have been discussing the whole time. If hypothetically the Yahweh did exist then I would judge the Yahweh's moral character by the Yahweh's actions and moral pronouncements to us. Since the Yahweh's condones commands and commits what would be called atrocities if humans were to do the same I have no choice but to consider the Yahweh's moral character to be atrocious.
#124
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@Dr.Franklin


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Doc,

YOUR MISTAKEN QUOTE: "but according to logic, he has to be good"

Unfortunately our Jesus, as a part of the TRIUNE DOCTRINE, was a brutal serial killer in the Old Testament. Additionally, even in the New Testament He stated that certain human entities should be murdered, which is hardly an acceptable "good" attribute, wouldn't you say?  

Now, you tell me if Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate of the Triune is allegedly "good" in my post #117 above within this thread, okay?  Get back to me when you have time to read said post, and to make a LOGICAL determination of whether Jesus is really "good" as you think at this time. Thanks.


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#125
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@BrotherDThomas
philosophically, no
#126
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@secularmerlin
so what if it is hypothetical, that is pretty much a lot of religious debate
#127
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@Dr.Franklin
I would say that it is very probable that all discussion of the supernatural claims of religion and spirituality are by necessity hypothetical. 
#128
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@secularmerlin
so what
#129
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@Dr.Franklin
So I'm not sure what your point is.
#130
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@secularmerlin
so what? why does that matter
#131
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@Dr.Franklin
I'm not sure it does as far as it goes so long as you understand the difference between actual and hypothetical. 
#132
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@secularmerlin
so what?
#133
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@Dr.Franklin
Did you wish to continue our conversation or were you done?
#134
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@secularmerlin
no so what if it is hypotheitcal
#135
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@Dr.Franklin
Then I can consider it hypothetically. I'm afraid I can't consider it as an actual. Not without some demonstration that it is more.
#136
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@secularmerlin
well i must say that is all what religion does, provide hypotheitcal situations, did you see zedvictor quote 
#137
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@Dr.Franklin
I do not disagree.
#138
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@secularmerlin
yeah pretty much
#139
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@Dr.Franklin
So you are no longer interested in arguing your position?
#140
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@secularmerlin
I am
#141
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@Dr.Franklin
Then proceed. 
#142
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@secularmerlin
I have
#143
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@Dr.Franklin
Then perhaps respond to my points or failing that just a recap of your argument to date?
#144
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@secularmerlin
what points?
Topic's author
#145
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@secularmerlin
I suppose the fact that God does not prevent any injustice calls into question his character as well.  
Only if he is capable of doing something and knows said injustices exist.
I don't agree with that assumption. Do you know how many people are starving in this world? Are you capable of doing anything? Yes. You could donate all of your time - and give away much more of your money than you do now. If you can do something but don't - does that make you culpable? And the answer is no. 



Is that really what you are going to sit with?
I am not proposing any particular scenario I'm just not convinced that you are correct can you demonstrate that the Yahweh was concerned for Job by any sensible definition? Because Yahwehs actions don't seem to bear this hypothesis out.
He expressed his pride in Job to Satan.  He trusted Job's good faith and depth of character. He limited Satan's power over him.  He answered him.  He vindicated him.  
These are all demonstrations of his concern and view of him. If he did not care or had no concern for him, why worry about limiting Satan's power? why bother answering him - if it was really just about a bet- then once he had won, what would be the point of talking to Noah, unless it was out of concern for him.  Why would he bother vindicating him to the others? That just does not make sense. 


There is nothing in this story which makes God culpable. True - he might have told Satan to F off.  Yet that would not vindicate Job in the eyes of Satan 
Why is that an issue? Is the Yahweh not omniscient? Did he need some test to determine Job's motivation? Why is Satan's opinion in this matter important in the least? Is god not the all powerful all knowing final arbiter of Job's destiny? It seems almost like the actions of a being who does not know everything. Perhaps the god described in the bible just isn't as powerful as I have been led to believe by Christians. 
God vindicated Job because he cared for Job.   Satan however is not omniscient - and neither are humans.  None of this was for God's sake. Satan's opinion is important because many people in the world have the same opinion.  And God used this to demonstrate that Satan's position and many people were also wrong. I think it reveals the actions of a GOD who has a much bigger picture in mind than just Job and Satan.  And a God who has a plan. And brings it to pass.  I am not sure why you think this reveals a lack of power.  



#146
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@Tradesecret
I don't agree with that assumption. Do you know how many people are starving in this world? Are you capable of doing anything? Yes. You could donate all of your time - and give away much more of your money than you do now. If you can do something but don't - does that make you culpable? And the answer is no. 
Unless the Yahweh can throw all of his efforts and resources into the problem and never have a hope of solving the problem then this is a false equivalent and if that is the case I am unimpressed with his omnipotence. 
God vindicated Job because he cared for Job.   Satan however is not omniscient - and neither are humans.  None of this was for God's sake. Satan's opinion is important because many people in the world have the same opinion.  And God used this to demonstrate that Satan's position and many people were also wrong. I think it reveals the actions of a GOD who has a much bigger picture in mind than just Job and Satan.  And a God who has a plan. And brings it to pass.  I am not sure why you think this reveals a lack of power.  
Why does Satan's opinion matter? Why does any human's opinion matter? Is the Yahweh not the final arbiter of Job's fate and the final judge of his actions? If he cannot do that without some convoluted test which includes boils, abject poverty and the death of his children then I am unimpressed with his omniscience. 
#147
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@Dr.Franklin
what points?
That in order to judge a beings moral character I have no choice but to assess that beings actions and statements. Do you have some other method for doing so to propose?
#148
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret



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TRADESECRET, The Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, and now the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark,

Psssst, don't make your RUN AWAY status so obvious from the biblical axiomatic link within this forum below, okay?  Don't you realize that Jesus is watching you (Hebrews 4:13) RUN from said post, in the same way you've RUN AWAY from other posts of mine at this time?  :(




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#149
Stephen
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@Tradesecret
It does seem to say more about the author than the Yahweh. I agree absolutely about the ending however. It is unsatisfactory that the answer is "don't question me when I torment you!"
Of course it is not God doing the tormenting. It is Satan.  But that point does not even register in this discussion.  In fact God actually limits what Satan might have done because he loved Job

Oh for fs stop it!  This is simple desperation of you trying to excuse the inexcusable.  All the actions of Satan - who had once been sentenced to crawl on his belly eating dirt for all his days  but now  suddenly just walking around free as a bird - were sanctioned by god himself, no matter how you want to spin it. God stood by and watched all that Satan was allowed to do BY GOD himself and at the end god more or less told job to stop whining.  And I suppose the commandment of "thou shalt no kill " didn't apply to Satan here either! Exodus 20:13 King James Version.



 In the story of Job we do have a god that actually did know the out come. He did know  that his most loyal and faithful servant wouldn't let him down and he did know  he would remain faithful, but killed these ten children anyway.  It was simply far beyond any and  all mental torture for the hell of it.
 It  is said the children were replaced by more children. Well this simply shows how cheap life is to the megalomaniac god , doesn't it.

And you haven't explained why a god would need to prove anything to anyone? A god, it appears that felt he  had to prove something ( how great he was) to a literal lowlife belly crawling serpent that had been condemned years before to eat dirt for the rest of its life? 




#150
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so what
So I'm not sure what your point is.
so what? why does that matter
So you are no longer interested in arguing your position?
I am
Then proceed.
I have
Then perhaps respond to my points or failing that just a recap of your argument to date?
what points?
Riveting.