Religion should prepare us for a mentality, not faith to God

Author: Intelligence_06 ,

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  • Intelligence_06
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    If I do equally as many things as the theist when we both are working, and I am helping the needy when the theist is praying with seemingly no effect, why does he get to go to heaven and I don't?

    If Pascal's wager is a sound theory then God is a total jerk. No matter how much good I do to humanity, as long I trust myself to do everything, I go to hell. Isn't this just like Authoritarian Communism? Good things good done, but you criticize me and the punishment is equally as bad as the slacker on the hay.

    I can do good things and I can help more people on sundays than the average theist because they don't work on sundays. Having the mentality of helping everything is not bad, or is it?
  • Lemming
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    --> @Intelligence_06
    Not all religious people believe that you have to believe in their faith to go to heaven.
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Lemming
    True, my experience is most Christians will get rather uncomfortable and make all sorts of excuses on how people who aren't Christians get into Christian heaven (it's the only one, right?), none of which are consistent with the bible. None get in except through Jesus, and if you don't know Jesus, you're out of luck...sorry, kids who are born into Islam and die of some terrible illness. I bet many will do so in response to this post :). 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @Intelligence_06
    If Pascal's wager is a sound theory then God is a total jerk. No matter how much good I do to humanity, as long I trust myself to do everything, I go to hell.
    not neccessarily true,you would have more benefits believing in God
  • Intelligence_06
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    By no means I said that Pascal's wager is wrong, but it implies that God is probably a jerk.
  • Intelligence_06
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    Pascal's wager is like I should prepare an entire ceremony if I win the lottery but I bought one scracher and the chances are 1:1,000,000. How do we know that there even is a god, and how do we know our religion is right? Exactly, We don't. We don't know whether our religion is right and believing in that god is most likely as "bad" as being an atheist. Our "religion" could be as wrong as occult, or what if occult is on the right track and Christianity is not?

    I could do more things being myself and trusting my own decisions and talking myself instead of a field of conscious energy that may or may not be portrayed as a savior or a jerk. For the time needed for the gospel sang in the local church, I might have already built a whole flagpole. For the time needed for the locals to confess their sins, I might have already polished doorknobs for the entire neighborhood. By believing the wrong God, we are just making God madder and madder. Either that or God cares not at all because good people are good and bad people are bad.

    If God exists, he should have told us everything. An ongoing Q&A running on thought itself. Leaving a mysterious book then punishes anyone that has any constructive criticisms to God is anything but the optimal choice if I am God. Trust me. If most intellectuals had the power to create and destroy substances and energy, then a worldly council could run this world better than a supposed "god".

    The God runs the world like China right now. You are doing work? great. You are spreading my propaganda? great. You hate me based on facts? Go to hell. It is absurd that this God is even running this world like this, as if it is even possible. Just pull the power cord and let us do things ourselves.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @Intelligence_06
    no God doesnt do that to good people but it is MORE PREFERABLE to believe in him than not
  • Intelligence_06
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Well Pascal's wage implies that. The ideal situation is if God is totally subjective and judges one good enough for heaven just based on works instead of faith.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @Intelligence_06
    no it doesnt apply any of that
  • Intelligence_06
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    I could use Pascal's wager on Chinese politics

    Like CCP + CCP reigns = good
    Dislike CCP + CCP reigns = bad
    Like CCP + CCP collapses = whatever
    Dislike CCP + CCP collapses = whatever

    Pascal's wager judges whether God accepts people into heaven or not solely based on if they are faithful to God, no matter how much good and evil are spent. If an extremely helpful atheist(for example, this guy) undergoes this process, then he is ending up in hell, for whatever reason. If you are defending your belief, at least give a reason.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    not neccessarily true,you would have more benefits believing in God
    Really? What benefits are there for such beliefs other than some (hypothetical/undemonstrable) reward in the (hypothetical/undemonstrable) afterlife? How does Pascal's wager point to any other benefit? It is my understanding that Pascal presented his argument solely based on the strength of infinite (hypothetical/undemonstrable) reward versus  infinite (hypothetical/undemonstrable) punishment. 

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Lemming
    Not all religious people believe that you have to believe in their faith to go to heaven.
    What then is the criteria for entry into heaven and what reason in that case would one have to subscribe to Pascal's wager? If the cost versus benefit of belief is not eternal torment versus bliss what exactly is being wagered?
  • Intelligence_06
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    The fact is that just trusting something does not bring intrinisic benefits. However, learn to help does. I imagine being a helpful fellow is much more important than just trusting a being that isn't even provable. Now use it on here.

    Suppose: God welcomes all that do more good than bad

    Do good + God exists = Heaven
    Do bad + God exists = Hell
    Do good + God doesn't exist = People thank you
    Do bad + God doesn't exist = People hate you

    I think it is the best to do things that is good for this life. Religion is possibly teaching us to be positive. In that case, we should find fun being in hell too considering those with strong willpower will remain sane in the long mundane lockup from day 1 to day 3650. Judging a ticket to heaven based on belief is implying God is a jerk, and he should not be a jerk, whatsoever. I know God does not do that and should not.


  • Lemming
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    --> @secularmerlin
    What then is the criteria for entry into heaven and what reason in that case would one have to subscribe to Pascal's wager? If the cost versus benefit of belief is not eternal torment versus bliss what exactly is being wagered?
    Well, I suppose I had a bit of tunnel vision, and focused on the non-Christians going to Hell part, rather than the Pascal's wager part.

    My family, as I take it view Christianity as the best path to living a 'good life, to being closer to God.
    But I don't think they see it as a requirement to entering Heaven.
    They have faith in a kind, loving, understanding, God, who possesses knowledge beyond their ken
    That will in some manner answer for all that has occurred bad in the world,
    That in some manner even the lost or fallen of humanity will be brought back into the light.,
    Not dammed to some eternity of fire, smoke, darkness, and suffering.
    Afterlife being a vague and mysterious thing, what.
    I think they have faith that good people, even without faith in God, will be brought into the fold,
    Even people who deny Gods existence.

    They also don't profess to judge people's fate after,
    Let God sort them out so to speak, I think.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Lemming
    If faith in the existence of some god(s) is not necessarily a requirement for entry into heaven what are the actual criteria and how have you determined them?
  • Lemming
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    --> @secularmerlin
    It's me Leaning from DDO, I'm not religious, Merlin.
    I just dislike religious fellows being propped up as strawmen, or stereotyped all together into unfeeling Hell threaten'ers.
    I'm fond of my family members who are religious, and a number of the religious people I grew up knowing in life.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Lemming
    I am not offering any strawman. I am only addressing Pascal's Wager and the flaws in the argument. (IF) the criteria for entry into some afterlife cannot be determined (THEN) any argument concerning entry into said afterlife becomes by necessity an argument from ignorance. 
  • Lemming
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Oh I don't think you or Intelligence_06 is straw manning religion.
    As I said, just a bit of tunnel vision on my part.

    Devils Advocate though, I don't see why Pascal's wager would have to 'only refer to the Christian religion.
    Plenty of folk who aren't religious, but instead spiritual, that might believe in some afterlife, and what karma might await them there.
    Human's 'do often fear/respect karma.
    As evidenced by the many different beliefs that 'have humans after death's effected by it.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Lemming
     I don't see why Pascal's wager would have to 'only refer to the Christian religion.
    That is actually one of its flaws not one of its strengths. No matter what religion presents the argument also presents a false dichotomy. Believing isn't enough if it is your argument that one must believe in the "correct" god(s) in order to receive the reward proposed. 
  • Lemming
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Living or trying to live a righteous life, seems to me a decent way to cover all of the bases.
    All one has to believe in is 'some sort of reckoning, based upon their actions on Earth.
    And perhaps some people would only live a decent life, by dint of believing there was 'something more after death.
    Wouldn't 'have to be a specific religion, I'd think.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Intelligence_06
    If I do equally as many things as the theist when we both are working, and I am helping the needy when the theist is praying with seemingly no effect, why does he get to go to heaven and I don't?

    If Pascal's wager is a sound theory then God is a total jerk. No matter how much good I do to humanity, as long I trust myself to do everything, I go to hell. Isn't this just like Authoritarian Communism? Good things good done, but you criticize me and the punishment is equally as bad as the slacker on the hay.

    I can do good things and I can help more people on sundays than the average theist because they don't work on sundays. Having the mentality of helping everything is not bad, or is it?

    Christians, indeed all believers in a god believe themselves to have the monopoly on morals. Put simply, if one doesn't believe in god and have  faith then then  they are believed to be  incapable of living a life with morals  and an  upstanding life .  Haughty doesn't even cover it, does it.

  • SirAnonymous
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    --> @Stephen
    Christians, indeed all believers in a god believe themselves to have the monopoly on morals. Put simply, if one doesn't believe in god and have  faith then then  they are believed to be  incapable of living a life with morals  and an  upstanding life . Haughty doesn't even cover it, does it.
    As a Christian who knows a lot of other Christians, I cannot think of even a single one who believes that non-Christians are incapable of having morals or living a moral life.
  • Lemming
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Some Christians supported the Taiping Rebellion, as it encouraged a 'form of Christianity.
    Though I'm doubtful myself that such is the answer,
    Doesn't seem worth it to spread a distorted message of one's religion.
    Similar problem in my eyes is just giving people free Bibles, what with there being context needing explanation and what.

    Can't say I disagree with Intelligence_06 on Religion should prepare us for a mentality, not faith to God.
    But eh, I'm an atheist.
  • SirAnonymous
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    --> @Stephen
    You just painted 84% of the world with the same brush and essentially called them all moral prigs.
  • Intelligence_06
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    --> @SirAnonymous
    r-really? 84% of people are of no religion?