“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything"

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  • Stephen
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    Does this dictate actually mean what it says?
     
     
    You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below”. Exodus 20:4.KJV.
     
    Because to Moses, this lord  then later goes on and gives another  dictate and ordered Moses to make a graven image of a serpent of brass” and it cured the desert wondering Hebrews of.... well other Serpents actions, just by looking at it!
     
     And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers 21:1-9


    I noticed this serpent is actually taking the role of some kind of physician and  curing people.
    Which is something I suggested in my thread concerning the The problem with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. where at post 25 I state:

     
    Of course it wasn’t a tree at all was it? It was the half brother of this lord that was a problem, he wanted humans to be knowledgeable where as this “god  gods” did not. You need to go back to where this story actually originated, Mesopotamia,and you will read this creation epic in its original form. The two brothers involved are named Enlil and  his half brother Enki the serpent lord<<<<   see that serpent Lord.  Post 24 Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
     

  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @Stephen
    I once beat a cat with a stick.
  • Mopac
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    Yeah, and the ark of the covenant has statues of cherubim on it.

    I myself have always found this very puzzling. I must admit, I have always been an iconoclast heretic until oneday I heard a really good orthodox argument against iconoclasm... if you throw out icons, you actually throw the entire thing out.

    I thought about it and realized there might be something to that, so I am no longer an iconoclast.




  • Stephen
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    I am no longer an iconoclast.
    I suppose you cannot afford to be iconoclast seeing that this  massive biblical contraction by god himself cannot simply be explained away by ,misunderstanding, misreading, translation or any of the other myriad of excuses you likely to spill out repetitively when cornered with such a blatant contradiction as this concerning a biblical iconic patriarch such as Moses himself.
     
     
     
    Afterall, being an iconodule  who favours the veneration of religious icons you do not have to explain away all the biblical iconography that adorn Western Christian churches throughout the whole of Europe and parts of the Near East.
     
     But I see you have failed once more to reconcile this biblical anomaly. One the one hand God categorically forbids idols and on the other hand, god encourages the fashioning of such things and a serpent of all things, the so called great deceiver and liar from the garden of Eden!!!. 
     
    But it doesn't end there does it? It never does with these scriptures, as one contradiction will undoubtedly lead to another. And here it is.
     
    Keeping in mind at all times that this Rod/Pole with a snake wrapped around it was the very symbol of god's authority and Exodus describes it as the "Rod Of God" that held great power - god's power - we have to assume:
     
    then why did the Judeans take great exception to this graven image that was fashioned of the orders of their own god that carried great significance for the children of Israel? And explain to me, why did this happen?:>>
     
    When Israel Was invaded by the Assyrians, thousands of its citizens fled to the safety of Judah. King Hezekiah welcomed them with open arms but seized and broke their most treasured relic. Read for yourself,
     
     2 Kings 18:3-4
     He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.
      The people, rightly, revered this staff, they had seen its power, yet King Hezekiah saw it as a form of idolatry??? 
     
     
     
     

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    The 10 commandments are graven on to stone.

    It says at the beginning that we were all created in God's image. Even Jesus is called The Most Perfect Image in scripture. In fact, Jesus even says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    The point is that we as created beings have our relationship with God in creation through the medium of creation as we are created beings. But we do not serve the creature, rather the creator.


    "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thingthat is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"

    The point is not that we shouldn't make statues and pictures, but we shouldn't bow and serve them. Otherwise, why are there statues in the temple even? At the time of Moses with the serpent and the cherubim on the ark? 
    Besides that, even today Jews do make statues, though they do have rules they follow.


    So no, iconoclasm is a heresy for good reason, and as I said, I myself would have been considered an iconoclast at some point. I realized I was in error, and my position changed.

    That said, I still have an aversion to statues and pictures. I don't have any in my home.

     

  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    So no, iconoclasm is a heresy for good reason
     This shifting of the goalposts by you shouldn’t surprise me.  Saying the hypocrisy in this case is “GOOD” and the blatant contradictions are “GOOD”. is perhaps the only thing you can say given the facts that this hypocrisy involves God himself and one of the Bible's most famous patriarchs.

    and the ark of the covenant has statues of cherubim on it Indeed,
     Pleased you mentioned that;
    why then did not Hezekiah King of Judah destroy those “graven images”that adorned the lid of the Ark of the Covenant?

    And what about those two absolute massive golden cherubim erected at either side of the temple portico? They are said to have had ten metre wingspans!! If this is not making a likeness of “anything in the heavens above” then what is!?

    It also appears that neither GOD nor King David NOR Hezekiah King of Judah had a problem with these graven images? Why did he have a problem with the GOD GIVEN staff of MOSES?

    What you are refusing to acknowledge is that for centuries before Hezekiah, Joshua or the Babylonian exile, the united kingdom of Israel is being shown to have been practicing what was LATER regarded as idolatry without the slightest implication of any infringement of God's holy laws. What changed?
     
     
     "Thou Shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:.....
     thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"
     
    If you are going to string two commandments together at least quote the whole and complete verse where god states he is jealous and will punish the children of fathers for generations for something they are not responsible for.. 
     
    5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me";


     From your favourite and trusty dictionary
    iniquity 
    1: gross injustice.   2: wicked act or thing.

    So he is not just a “jealous god”  but a terrifying vengeful one too that will commit wicked acts of injustice to these blameless generations of children.

      Although I am sure this verse you added also gets contradicted somewhere. I shall have to look that up for . It won't take long. 

    Ah, here we are. 

    Deuteronomy 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Just cannot make up their minds can they these gospel writers....  or god himself?
  • Castin
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    --> @Stephen
     And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers 21:1-9
    I noticed this serpent is actually taking the role of some kind of physician and  curing people.
    Reminds me of the Rod of Asclepius.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Castin
    Reminds me of the Rod of Asclepius. 
    That is exactly what it is, Castin. It is the sign of healing and has been since man developed a brain.  I have stated here many times now  that one can see this sign of healing on every ambulance in the West it adorns the sides of ambulances, can be seen hospital lobbies and even on Fire Engines in the United States.

    It is the sign of the Sumerian Lord Enki, the creator God of Mesopotamia copied by Babylonians, Akkadians, Egyptians then Hebrews. It is the same Caduceus of the  Greeks known as the Staff of Hermes.  This staff was the Sigil/ symbol of this  very flesh and blood Sumerian Lord Enki, lord among lords that is being referred to as the serpent in the biblical creation story.

    Symbol of Lord Ea/ Enk 1000 's of years before the bible was even thought about




    Greek Caduceus


    It is no coincidence that Moses chose this Symbol, It was the sign of the lord that opposed his half brother Enlil in the garden of the Edin.
    And this is why King Hezekiah took great exception to this particular staff of this particular god carried once by his chosen servant Moses. Ezekiah, you see had been worshiping the other half brother Enli.


  • Mopac
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    "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."


  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
    I thought you was interested in the ruth. Your above verse has no meaning to this thread unless you would like to show us how it actually relates to the story of this Rod of God and the conflicting statement of God himself?
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    You are not open to the possibility that your interpretations are faulty, even if no authority on these scriptures. were to tell you otherwise.


    You are simply throwing as much garbage at the wall as you can from the skeptics annotated bible as you can. You are not really trying to learn. You already think you know. 


    That is why engaging you is a waste of time. You don't really know whatbyoubare talking about and you aren't really interested in learning.


    And I personally find what you are doing to be insulting.
  • Goldtop
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    --> @Mopac
    You are not open to the possibility that your interpretations are faulty,
    You are simply throwing as much garbage at the wall as you can
    That is why engaging you is a waste of time
    I personally find what you are doing to be insulting.

    Thank you for providing pretty much the exact words you need to hear about your posts.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    You are not open to the possibility that your interpretations are faulty, even if no authority on these scriptures. were to tell you otherwise.
    I am, but look how you have responded to this question
    I have asked you to explain away this contradiction by god himself. You have suggested as a answer that the hypocrisy in this case is “GOOD” and the blatant contradictions are “GOOD”. In other words you simply cannot explain it away can you?
     
    You have offered NO explanation, full stop!

    And you simply saying I may be “faulty” in my "interpretations" without actually telling me why they be “faulty” is not an answer EITHER ISIT!

    I am telling you. This staff was around along time before Moses was born., thousands of years before in fact. It was the symbolic staff of the flesh and blood Mesopotamian Lord of healing and medicine, EA/ENKI and his spouse. The evidence for my "interpretation" of this staff and it symbolism is overwhelming. The staff Moses fashioned on the direct orders and in contradiction of his god earlier dictate,  is said to have healed those who simply looked at it. 
    All of these staffs have one single thing in common: HEALING. These  EXACT symbols are still in use today to signify HEALINGAs I have shown

    You on the other hand have offered absolutely nothing . 
     

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Everytime you ask a question, you ask 4 others before the first one is answered.
    You behave like an ambush journalist. You aren't being sincere.


    I'm not playing your stupid game.

  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    Everytime you ask a question, you ask 4 others before the first one is answered.
    Maybe that is because you didn't answer question 1 you idiot.

     You simply cannot explain away this godly hypocritical contradiction. I have. And if you had read your Old Testament extremely closely, you would see that my explanation is perfectly sound. Hezekiah took exception to this rod because it was an emblem of the serpent god that Moses supported and revered unlike the one Hezekiah worshipped. AND This is why Hezekiah didn't demolish and destroy the cherubim images.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Lets stick to this one subject, and we might get somewhere.


    Your explanation is wrong. It says very clearly in the texts that people were performing abomination with the staff. They were worshipping it as an idol. It was never intended to be an idol before God. Moses didn't worship a serpent god.
  • Stephen
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    Not in the eyes of Moses' god as I have shown above and it is the same subject that I am sticking to.

     For centuries  Hezekiah, Joshua or the Babylonian exile, the united kingdom of Israel is being shown to have been practicing what was regarded as idolatry without the slightest implication of any infringement of God's holy laws. there is absolutely nothing that suggest this life saving Rod was destroyed on the orders of Moses' god. It appears that these destructive actions were reforms made by Hezekiah himself and on his own accord. It had been in the possession of the Mosaic hebrews for over a thousand years before it was destroyed. 

    Jesus compared his own healing power to the actions and power of this serpent symbol. Jesus likened it to the symbol of eternal life. Is this not worshiping !?

    In The book of Mormon Alma tells the people of Antionum that many of Israelites died because they lacked the faith to look at the brazen serpent. He then compared the brazen serpent to a type of Christ and exhorted the people to look to Christ and spiritually live

     And I have just come across this :


    There is a Brazen Serpent Monument on Mount Nebo in Jordan created by Italian artist Giovanni Fantoni. The Cardston Alberta Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a hand painted mural depicting Moses and the brazen serpent. Similarly, on the ceiling of the Sistine ChapelMichelangelo painted a mural of the Israelites' deliverance from the plague of serpents by the creation of the bronze serpent.

    So all the above are worshipers of graven images.

    you said earlier " I still have an aversion to statues and pictures. I don't have any in my home".

     Would this include photos of your parents, children, brothers , sisters, friends and other relatives.

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    I do not have pictures at all in my home, not even of relatives. I don't use facebook. At the same time, there are a lot of things I do that are personal choices that I wouldn't burden other people with. For example, I am a vegetarian. None of these things are really a matter of the faith. I digress, it's not important.

    I do not respect the book of Mormon as scripture. I agree with Samuel Clemins. Chloroform in print. I say that because I have read it. 

    Butback to what we are really talking about..  if the fiery serpent on a pole is the god of Moses, why did God tell Moses to make it? The people were not told to worship the serpent, but to look at it. Why was this relic destroyed? Because people were worshipping it, which was not its intention.


    So tell me what makes more sense. Your interpretation which pretty much is that either Moses was an idiot who was inconsistent with what you interpret the commandment about idolatry to mean, and/or someone who worshipped a snake god...

    Or

    That you are wrong. 

    I think it is far more likely that you are wrong about something. 






  • Stephen
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      if the fiery serpent on a pole is the god of Moses, why did God tell Moses to make it? 
     
    No. It was fashioned on the instructions of his god. I haven’t once said it was Moses’ god. You are now turning to deceit for answers.
    And it is clearly in the scripture why Moses Was instructed to fashion it.  HAVE YOU NOT EVEN READ THE VERSE!!!?  It was to heal. Are you purposely being ignorant?
    Show me where in the scripture the god of Moses instructs Ezekiah to destroy this Rod that he specifically instructed Moses to make?
      I have said twice now

     For centuries  Hezekiah, Joshua or the Babylonian exile, the united kingdom of Israel is being shown to have been practicing what was regarded as idolatry without the slightest implication of any infringement of God's holy laws. there is absolutely nothing that suggest this life saving Rod was destroyed on the orders of Moses' god. It appears that these destructive actions were reforms made by Hezekiah himself and on his own accord.

    They had then  according to you been  "worshiping"  this god given life saving rod for over a thousand years without any retribution or punishment from god, why is that?

    You haven't addressed this. Ignoring these facts is not answering.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    I'm pretty sure I brought the whole Moses serpent thing to you in another topic. You really wonder if I read the verse?

    I also addressed your question.

    The fiery serpent was never intended to be worshipped. When people started worshipping it, it was destroyed.


    You know, the last dying wish of Buddha was that people didn't worship him as a god, and it wasn't too long after that we had people building temples around his toenails.


    People do stupid stuff. What?

    But Moses never worshipped a snake god, and the staff was never intended to be served as a god. Clearly your understanding is off. You must think Moses was awfully stupid or something to think he would be so careless as to make all these idols after the commandment was given to not make them.



  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    I'm pretty sure I brought the whole Moses serpent thing to you in another topic. You really wonder if I read the verse?
     
    No you haven’t and yes I do. Why ask me why god instructed Moses to make this staff unless you’re just being stupid? It was me who put the verse there above, IN MY FIRST POST, that details this staff and why it was made. Numbers 2121:1-9   Then you ask me the silly question of why god told Moses’ to make it. Are you backwards?
    why don’t look at your own post 18 above to see your own stupid question.
     
    The fiery serpent was never intended to be worshipped.
    But they had been venerating the thing for over a thousand years before Hezekiah came on the scene,without any punishment from  Moses’ god. You haven't explained that. why did it all of a sudden and after over a thousand years, become an abomination to Ezekiah??

    You must think Moses Was awfully stupid or something to think he would be so careless as to make all these idols after the commandment was given to not make them.
     
     Are you stupid. show me where Moses was instructed to make anything else other than this staff .Are younow trying to say that Moses’ god didn’t instruct him to make this staff?
    Here is the verse:

    And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers 21:8
     
    And while you mention “making all these idols”   you are conveniently skimming over and ignoring the stone cold fact that there were  graven images in the temple on the ark and each side of the temple portico.
     
    Now you look at the commandment again:

    You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Exodus 20:4
     Do you see that?   ^^^^^^^^  in the form of anything^^^^^^^ it includes ALL and everything above and below.

    So explain to me why these temple “graven images” were not taboo when god clearly commands not to make ANY??? 

    Even if what you say is correct. It doesn't explain why some graven images were acceptable yet this particular staff was an abomination to Ezekiah.


    Can you not see the hypocrisy and double standards going on here? 

    Your argument collapses under your own inadvertent admission!

  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac

    You are not open to the possibility that your interpretations are faulty,
    You see Stephen reading what is written in the bible will make you falsely interpret what the passage you are reading means. In order that you are clear on it's meaning you must invent your own meaning first and then blithely claim that what is written is wrong and you have the right understanding. To be a bible bashing christian you simply must ignore what's written in that book and make your own shit up and claim that's what the bible says.
  • Stephen
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    --> @disgusted
    They are so used to the obvious and more common questions concerning the bible/ and why god does things for one person and not another etc etc. that they have had centuries to kind of perfect their answers in one shape or form. That is until one actually challenges them on their scriptures in detail , they then simply come apart and reconstruct the whole bible right in front of your eyes.

     When one takes the time to pick at these scriptures with a clear and critical eye it is not hard to spot the flaws, as I have shown above and on many other threads. What makes me grin is when they insist that they have answered your question. They don't seem to understand that responding to  a question, is not answering the question. See above for examples.

    You will notice, above it is Hezekiah himself and on his own accord doing what he decides is right or wrong and not the god who instructed the making of the staff in the first place. Mopac cannot seem to accept this. Mopac has also ignored the GLARING double standards of the fact that it was ALL graven images that were taboo, but still there were graven images in  god's own temple and outside of which two had over 30ft wingspans, (hows that for a blatant graven image!)  of which neither God nor  Hezekiah seemed to object.

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    I already gave you an answer.

    Images are not to be worshipped or bowed down to, and that is actually what it says in context.

    This is the full divine statement that you are taking out of context.


    "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thingthat is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

    It is not a total prohibition against making scupltures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course. Your iconoclast position doesn't carry any weight, it is wrong. 

    What is actually being said here is to not serve false gods or idols, which back then and even today take the form graven images or likenesses. 

    You ignore the argument I presented you from the very beginning while arrogantly calling Moses stupid. And claiming to know better than every authority that makes you wrong.

    Why do you think I get the impression you don't listen?




  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    I already gave you an answer.
    No you haven't

    Images are not to be worshipped or bowed down to

    You mean SOME graven images, don't you. And again you have avoided the stone cold and clear fact that this dictate from GOD!!! included ANY and ALL Graven images. so again I ask you, why was those temple GRAVEN IMAGES acceptable to Exiakah and not the god give serpent rod of moses?

    It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
    You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Exodus 20:4

    Look above the dictate is perfectly clear  see that word   ANYTHING^^^^^^^  That means "total".

    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above
    See above, ^^^^^you posted that ^^^^^^^ it clearly states ANY and ANYTHING does it not?

    What is actually being said here is to not serve false gods or idols, 
    It ALSO says not to create Graven Images of ANYTHING too. You can't get around this so you invent this crap>>

    with certain guidelines of course
    It took you along time to come up with that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. I wonder why.

     What are these "guidelines" that allows anyone to defy this jealous god?? Let us see then now.

    while arrogantly calling Moses stupid. 
    Not true. I asked would Moses be stupid enough to defy his god . The answer is no. God told him to make this HEALING staff and to entwine Specifically a Serpent  around it. The same emblem of HEALING is still used today in the western medical world.  There is no mention of god instructing Hezekiah to destroy this god given HEALING staff/rod/pole entwined with a serpent. 

    And claiming to know better than every authority 
    Where have I once claimed that? I have given my opinion on what I believe all this means. You do not have to accept what I say. And I don't care. It seems to bother you more than it does me.

    Now address the questions above please and stop telling me you have answered me because you haven't.