plurality voting sucks

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plurality voting is where you pick your favorite among a list of people. usually, this just means the person who didn't get majority support but is the largest minority, wins. often times the winner has low approval ratings for that reason. plurality voting also encourages the spoiler effect... in a country where three fourths of the country is one ideology, having multiple people in that category means the minority ideologies wins. also, plurality voting discourages third parties, because people dont want to be spoilers or parties keep people from participating. think how conservatives are keeping out the libertarian. think how hillary had low approval ratings but took the nomination anyway. think how Gore would have won twenty years ago, but Nadar spoiled his nomination. the examples are endless. it's an undemocratic process. it insists that low approval rating candidates should win. 
there are alternatives to plurality voting. approval rating voting. different types of rank voting. the large majority of other countries realize our voting process makes no sense, and have an alternative system. plurality is the wild west of voting, rationality be damned. 

here is an article highlighting some of the ways plurality voting sucks. 

Any academic will tell you that our choose-one voting method (plurality voting) is a terrible, terrible voting method. (There’s better.) In fact, plurality voting is so bad that it deserves its own top five list.
Here it is.

Number 5: It’s Inexpressive
Plurality voting is among the least expressive voting methods there is. A plurality ballot puts a slate of candidates in front of you and forces you to choose only one. No more.
Consider how strange that is. You likely have opinions about all those candidates. And yet, you only get a say about one. Different voting methods allow you to express yourself in all kinds of ways such as choosing as many as you want, ranking, and scoring. But plurality lets you do none of that.
Not convinced? Imagine a way to offer less information than plurality voting allows while not handing over a blank ballot. Good luck!

Number 4: The Spoiler Effect
Anyone awake during the 2000 US presidential election is aware of the spoiler effect. In that election, we had a candidate that didn’t win (Nader) who divided another candidate’s support (Gore). Without Nader’s presence, Gore would have won; but with Nader present, Bush won. It makes no sense for a candidate to enter the race—and lose!—yet change the winner. But that’s the kind of nonsense plurality carries out.
Plurality voting is extremely sensitive to the spoiler effect. The “spoiler” candidate only needs to take away a little support from a similar candidate to sway the election. This happens because plurality only lets you choose one candidate. Because you can only pick one, voters are forced to divide their support among similar candidates.
The spoiler effect influences policy as well. It largely explains the US’ draconian ballot-access laws. Third parties and independents are often forced to quickly get many thousands—sometimes tens or hundreds of thousands—of signatures to get on the ballot. To make matters worse, major parties then challenge those signatures to try to kick them off the ballot. In Pennsylvania, presidential candidate Ralph Nader was forced to pay court costs just for defending his own signatures. This heinousness plays out on the local level, too.
Why do major parties do this? Without a third or fourth candidate on the ballot, there’s no worry of a spoiler. Of course that also means voters don’t get options, but that’s not the major parties’ problem. So far major parties have preferred to stifle competition and democratic speech than address the real culprit: plurality voting.

Number 3: Favorite Betrayal
Plurality voting can bully you into voting against your favorite candidate. It does this by giving you a dilemma: (1) Support the candidate you really want, but risk having another candidate you don’t like win; or (2) Make a compromise by choosing among the frontrunners, but abandon your favorite.
How good is a voting method that punishes you for supporting your honest favorite?
Not being able to vote your favorite creates further issues. For instance, there’s less motivation to improve ballot access or get signatures for your candidate. After all, why work for better options if you can’t bring yourself to vote for them yourself?

Number 2: Partisan winners
When multiple candidates enter a plurality voting election—or advance through multi-candidate primaries—we tend to see more partisan winners. Why is that? There’s a phenomenon called the center-squeeze effect that works against moderate candidates appealing to the center. The effect looks like this:

(Figure generated using the voting simulation tool created by Ka-Ping Yee.)
The candidates in the middle have their vote divided and squeezed from either side while candidates on the ends pick up the support from either tail. If you had to pick a best candidate for this electorate, wouldn’t you pick the candidate right in the middle that appeas to the broadest range of voters?
With all the talk about partisanship, you’d think there’d be more attention to this center-squeeze issue, but there isn’t. Instead we cross our fingers for “bipartisan agreement.” Of course, expecting bipartisan cooperation in such a partisan environment is a lot like a basketball player expecting a deliberate assist from the opposing team. Fat chance.

Number 1: Barrier to Entry
Barrier to entry doesn’t necessarily affect an election’s winner, but it does threaten political discourse, a crucial piece to a functional democracy. Plurality creates a barrier to entry by giving new candidates artificially low support—the consequence when voters fear to vote their favorites. This means that new candidates (including third parties and independents) don’t just lose. They lose big.
Our plurality voting approach is also taken with polling. They call people at dinner time: “If the election were held today, which candidate would you vote for?”
And that polling information is used in all kinds of ways, including who gets in debates. If candidates get too little support—which is what plurality does to newcomers—they don’t get in the debates. That means those candidates’ ideas don’t get heard.
Media, too, consider plurality voting results when it comes to third parties and independents. Plurality’s paltry showing for third parties is the media’s excuse for why they don’t cover those candidates. Media’s reasoning to snub candidates goes something like this: “If their ideas were any good, they would have done better in the polls. They didn’t do well in the polls, so their ideas must not have been any good.” The assumption here, however, was that the poll—using plurality voting—was any good in the first place. But we know that plurality voting is no good at all.
Unsurprisingly, third parties and independents rarely get anywhere. Plurality has so ingrained in us that we can’t have new ideas. It also tells us that even if a third party or independent gets on the ballot, we should dismiss them. Or maybe we should not even notice their presence.
Plurality voting’s role means that we get stuck with two parties. And these two parties represent a narrow range of ideas. It’s little wonder why there’s seldom any real progress. Of course, that’s not to say there can’t be.

it's such a stupid system, that i distrust the motives of those who support it. maybe their favorite candidate has no chance otherwise? maybe they're just ignorant of the vast number of alternative voting systems? who knows. 
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@ILikePie5
i decided our sub debate needed its own thread 
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@n8nrgmi
it's such a stupid system, that i distrust the motives of those who support it. maybe their favorite candidate has no chance otherwise? maybe they're just ignorant of the vast number of alternative voting systems? who knows. 
How about, it’s undemocratic? Let whoever wants to run, run. It’s the way it’s been since the founding of the nation. It’s how Lincoln and Wilson were elected. They were historically good Presidents. Democracy itself is inherently good. The outcomes can be good or bad, just like anything.
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you have it ass backwards. where do you think the two party system came from? maybe two parties is isn't what could be in theory, but for practical purposes, the only reason we have a two party system is because plurality voting is anti democracy. 
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Biden is better than Trump. Trump is everything the US was and not the future, and he will run our nation into the past if he is there for another 4 years.
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Biden is better than Trump. Trump is everything the US was and not the future, and he will run our nation into the past if he is there for another 4 years.

I hope so! I sure as hell don't want to continue on the path we have been going.
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What? So you support trump?
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You say "he will run our nation into the past" like it is somehow a bad thing. Conservatives like traditional values, which we used to have lol. Please take us back there, Donny!

And yes, I'll vote for Trump instead of that senile buffoon who will ruin the country through DACA amnesty, promotion of critical race theory among public servants, and abandoning all of the values that made this country great.
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@n8nrgmi
you have it ass backwards. where do you think the two party system came from?


Many Americans are disgusted and concerned about the dysfunction and abysmal results from Washington, D.C. However, this rant is not about adding to the depressing national dialog about politics, but about how to change the system by taking action that will work. Too many people—including many pundits, political scientists, and politicians themselves—are laboring under a misimpression that our political problems are inevitable, or the result of a weakening of the parties, or due to the parties’ ideological incoherence, or because of an increasingly polarized American public. Those who focus on these reasons are looking in the wrong places. The result is that despite all the commentary and attention on politics in recent years, there is still no accepted strategy to reform the system and things keep getting worse. We need a new approach. Our political problems are not due to a single cause, but rather to a failure of the nature of the political competition that has been created. This is a systemic problem. We are not political scientists, political insiders, or political experts. Instead, we bring a new analytical lens to understanding the performance of our political system: the lens of industry competition. This type of analysis has been used for decades to understand competition in other industries and sheds new light on the failure of politics because politics in America has become, over the last several decades, a major industry that works like other industries. We use this lens to put forth an investment thesis for political reform and innovation. What would be required to actually change the political outcomes we are experiencing? What would it take to better align the political system with the public interest and make progress on the nation’s problems? And, which of the many political reforms and innovative ideas that have been proposed would actually alter the trajectory of the system? Politics in America is not a hopeless problem, though it is easy to feel this way given what we experience and read about every day. There are promising reforms already gaining traction including important elements of the strategy we propose. It is up to us as citizens to recapture our democracy—it will not be self-correcting. I invite you to personally engage by investing both your time and resources—and by mobilizing those around you—in what we believe is the greatest challenge facing America today. It is often said that “We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate.”
Today the challenge for Americans is to participate not only as voters but also to participate in the reform of the political system itself. This is our democracy, and the need is urgent. This rant is about politics, but it is not political. The problem is not Democrats, Republicans, or the existence of parties per se. The problem is not individual politicians; most who seek and hold public office are genuinely seeking to make a positive contribution.

The real problem is the nature of competition in the politics industry, the self-sustaining monopolies with their self-interest in maintaining their status quo power, and the collusion from both sides to quash any threats to those 2 monopolies.


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@n8nrgmi
You might like these guys: https://www.fairvote.org/
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@n8nrgmi
you have it ass backwards. where do you think the two party system came from? maybe two parties is isn't what could be in theory, but for practical purposes, the only reason we have a two party system is because plurality voting is anti democracy. 
Bruh there were multiple people running for the Presidency from the same party. You’re advocating for a two party system by getting rid of third parties. Plurality voting allows for minor parties to have a say. It’s literally Civics101. Banning minor parties is inherently anti-democratic. Third parties have always existed. From the inception to antebellum, to reconstruction, to progressive, to WWI, post WWII.
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I would imagine that instant runoff voting would increase the probability of GoP victories since a lot more conservatives vote Libertarian than liberals vote Green. Or, at least, that's what happened in 2016. I think Maine is doing it for 2020. There will probably be data from Maine to assess the probable impact such a voting system would have on the current balance of power.
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I would imagine that instant runoff voting would increase the probability of GoP victories since a lot more conservatives vote Libertarian than liberals vote Green. Or, at least, that's what happened in 2016. I think Maine is doing it for 2020. There will probably be data from Maine to assess the probable impact such a voting system would have on the current balance of power.
RCV is undemocratic. Third parties can’t act as spoilers under that system and a result, their positions can’t impact the election.
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 Third parties can’t act as spoilers under that system

Why not?
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the reason we have a two party system is because we have plurality voting. no one is talking about banning third parties. alternative voting systems encourage more parties. 

u keep misrepresenting my position, and you keep repeating things i've debunked. 

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@ILikePie5
what do you think of the fact that a large majority of the globe have systems that are not plurality voting? 

what do you think of the opening sentence of the article i cited? 

"Any academic will tell you that our choose-one voting method (plurality voting) is a terrible, terrible voting method." 

i think it's accurate.

the consensus of the planet, and objective minded people, is my way of thinking. close minded people cling to the old way of doing things, they cling to a broken system. 
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Why not?
Cause their votes get allocated to someone they consider inferior and the final tally just shows the top two. Take a look at ME-2 in 2018. Golden won because of RCV cause Poliquin was ahead before that. No one remembers where the votes came from for Golden from TPs cause they become irrelevant. Meanwhile you look at 2016. We know Jill Stein and the Green Party cost Hillary Clinton.
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@n8nrgmi
the reason we have a two party system is because we have plurality voting. no one is talking about banning third parties. alternative voting systems encourage more parties. 

u keep misrepresenting my position, and you keep repeating things i've debunked. 
I don’t know what you’re advocating for? Are you advocating for RCV?

what do you think of the fact that a large majority of the globe have systems that are not plurality voting?

what do you think of the opening sentence of the article i cited?

"Any academic will tell you that our choose-one voting method (plurality voting) is a terrible, terrible voting method."

i think it's accurate.

the consensus of the planet, and objective minded people, is my way of thinking. close minded people cling to the old way of doing things, they cling to a broken system.
Overall our nation is better than any other country lol. I could care less what other countries do. If Lincoln wins with less than 50% of the vote I’m fine with that. I don’t see what your problem is with people who win with less than 50% cause it doesn’t dictate whether they’re good or bad lol.
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Plurality seems to be the Dart word of the moment.
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@ILikePie5
RCV is undemocratic. Third parties can’t act as spoilers under that system and a result, their positions can’t impact the election.
I see that it would diminish the influence of third parties but I don't see that it's undemocratic. Each voter has equal power in determining the outcome. I view the spoiler effect as problematic rather than beneficial anyway. The goal is to represent the people. Say the conservative vote is split between 2 candidates and the liberal vote is united behind a single candidate. Even though most of the votes were for conservative candidates, the liberal candidate may end up winning anyway, even though one of the conservative candidates would better represent the voters.
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Say the conservative vote is split between 2 candidates and the liberal vote is united behind a single candidate. Even though most of the votes were for conservative candidates, the liberal candidate may end up winning anyway, even though one of the conservative candidates would better represent the voters.
Why is this assumed to be bad. Because of that system we had Presidents like Lincoln, Wilson, and even Clinton to an extent in his first term. Just because they don’t get a plurality doesn’t mean they’ll automatically bad. You’re making an assumption that isn’t true. Hoover won in a landslide but he is probably one of the worse Presidents. Plurality isn’t indicative of anything.
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@ILikePie5
Why is this assumed to be bad. Because of that system we had Presidents like Lincoln, Wilson, and even Clinton to an extent in his first term. Just because they don’t get a plurality doesn’t mean they’ll automatically bad. You’re making an assumption that isn’t true. Hoover won in a landslide but he is probably one of the worse Presidents. Plurality isn’t indicative of anything.
If the goal is to elect someone who best represents the majority of voters, then electing the person whose views are most consistent with those of the majority of voters would be ideal. With plurality voting, multiple candidates with roughly similar views may split the vote of the majority of voters who have similar views. Then, a third candidate who has roughly opposite viewpoints and significantly less support may win simply because the vote is not split between the third candidate and a fourth one. The end result is that the candidate who wins is the one who is the least representative of the voters. When the goal is to represent the voters, this is not ideal.
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@Death23
If the goal is to elect someone who best represents the majority of voters, then electing the person whose views are most consistent with those of the majority of voters would be ideal. With plurality voting, multiple candidates with roughly similar views may split the vote of the majority of voters who have similar views. Then, a third candidate who has roughly opposite viewpoints and significantly less support may win simply because the vote is not split between the third candidate and a fourth one. The end result is that the candidate who wins is the one who is the least representative of the voters. When the goal is to represent the voters, this is not ideal.
You’re once again not addressing the point I made. Public opinion can shift rapidly. Historically it has in both directions even if the person that wins gets a majority or a plurality. It’s an arbitrary snapshot of who should be President. Using your form of voting, Lincoln would not have been President and nor would Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton. You’re creating a method that puts a timestamp of approval ratings. How’s that better than any other poll for that matter lol. Third parties lose relevance in your model - it’s plain and simple.
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You’re once again not addressing the point I made. Public opinion can shift rapidly. Historically it has in both directions even if the person that wins gets a majority or a plurality. It’s an arbitrary snapshot of who should be President. Using your form of voting, Lincoln would not have been President and nor would Woodrow Wilson and Bill Clinton. You’re creating a method that puts a timestamp of approval ratings. How’s that better than any other poll for that matter lol. Third parties lose relevance in your model - it’s plain and simple.
The goal is representation. Providing third parties with relevance is not the goal. What good leaders may have been elected through plurality voting in the past is not relevant. A broken clock is right twice a day, they say. Fluctuations in public opinion happen in both RCV and plurality voting. So, I don't see how that's factor in choosing between the two.
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@Death23
The goal is representation. Providing third parties with relevance is not the goal. What good leaders may have been elected through plurality voting in the past is not relevant. A broken clock is right twice a day, they say. Fluctuations in public opinion happen in both RCV and plurality voting. So, I don't see how that's factor in choosing between the two.
Sure but you’re preventing third party candidates from being relevant. If the status quo is the same as the alternative why change it? I’m telling you the system is working as it was intended. It has been every since the start of the nation not just twice. Your option reduces the prominence of third parties and write in campaigns. That’s undemocratic. Third parties are essential to democracy. Eliminating the spoiler effect does a disservice to third parties.

Let me phrase it this way. RCV would make my vote for Green Party useless even though it’s the party I support. My vote for Gary Johnson would be useless even though I’m voting him to show my dissatisfaction with the GOP. You’re eliminating the option for them to show dissatisfaction. Various Presidents won only with a plurality. Probably about a quarter to a third of elections have been that way. It’s how the system is designed. Your approval in California doesn’t matter to a guy in Wyoming. You’re trying to justify RCV as a method to get to popular vote lol. It’s quite funny.
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@ILikePie5
It's about priorities. Accurately representing the people is of a greater priority than providing third parties with influence. I do think third parties should be represented and have a voice. Like I said, the goal is representation. However, when a single person is being selected to represent everybody, I just don't see that it's very possible to do that for that particular position. Additionally, the influence third parties have through the spoiler effect is an incidental and round-about way of providing third parties with a voice in the political system. Contrast the presidency with, for example, a deliberative body like congress where the legislative power is divided amongst hundreds of seats, then providing third parties with seats there strikes me as more appropriate, perhaps with proportional representation.
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doesnt work in a hyperpartisan system