Reality and illusion

Author: Shed12 ,

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  • Shed12
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    What is reality? What is illusion?

    I do not mean which things are real and which things are illusory but what is realness itself and what is illusion itself. Telling which is which is not useless or discouraged, but if you will, can you explain why this is real and that is not?


  • Mopac
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    Reality is existence the way it truly is, independent of observation and postulation.

    Illusion is the way things appear to be. 

    That said, illusions are real in some sense, they exist, but The Ultimate Reality is real in every sense.


  • Shed12
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    [                                                                ]
    |                             [                            ]     |
    | Ultimate Reality   | Reality/Illusion    |     |
    |                             [                            ]     |
    [                                                                ]

    Is it something like this?
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Shed12
    There would be no way to distinguish between a  truly convincing and persistent illusion and reality. 
  • Mopac
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    --> @Shed12
    If I am interpreting that correctly, it looks right.
  • Shed12
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    --> @Mopac
    I've thought some more about what you said. Does everything have an appearance? I think I understand that what a thing appears to be is not the thing, but nonetheless the thing has an appearance. And that appearance is an illusion vs the actual thing.
  • Shed12
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Is illusion and reality then the same? 

  • Shed12
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    I mean if two things aren't distinguishable, what are they except the same thing? 
  • Shed12
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    I mean if two things aren't distinguishable, what are they except the same thing? 
    I didn't consider that you said "convincing and persistent." If they were not, what are they and what is different?

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Shed12
    The point isn't that reality and illusion are the same and there is no particular reason to believe that they are. My point is that there is no reliable way to test our perceived reality for "realness". 
  • Mopac
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    --> @Shed12
    We ourselves are created beings in creation. So while what we experience is illusion, there is reality to the illusion. The illusion itself is real, even if it is not ultimate reality.

    The reality that we experience or conceptualize even is true in an operationalist sense. What I mean is, these illusory realities are contingent existences. They only exist in a relativstic sense. They require other existences to be, and these other existences themselves require other existences to be.

    The Ultimate Reality is exception to this. It is not a contingent existence. It always was, always is, always will be. It requires nothing to exist, but every other existence requires it to exist. It is always the same, never changing, perfect, compete, incomparible, ungraspable. It is The Singularity. 

    The closest you can come to seeing The Ultimate Reality is The Most Perfect Image in Truth. The Ultimate Reality is The Uncreated. 


    We are created beings who experience the world through the medium of creation. Experience itself is creation. Truth as we know it is true in some sense, but Reality as it Truly is not a knowing.





  • Shed12
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    --> @Mopac
    The Most Perfect Image in Truth
    Is it really an image, like something you see, or is "image" a metaphor?

  • Mopac
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    --> @Shed12
    Some definitions of image courtesy of Merriam-webster...


    "a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing"

    "Semblance"

    "idea, concept"

    "a mental picture or impression of something"


    Does this clarify?



  • Shed12
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    --> @Mopac
    Yes, I think so. Thank you.
  • Shed12
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    --> @Mopac
    What does "...in Truth" mean?
  • Mopac
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    --> @Shed12
    You have to believe that there is truth, you have to believe in truth, and you have to be sincere in your love of the truth. 

    You need that to see The Ultimate Reality through The Most Perfect Image.


    Without that Spirit of Truth, The Most Perfect Image of Truth is just another image to you, and The Ultimate Reality cannot be seen through it.




  • SupaDudz
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    Illusions may be closer to reality than we fought.

    Think about it. Deja vu happens all the time? If most dreams are considered wild and just our mid thinking, why do they happen so vividly and accurate. Most dreams are real people we have seen and real scenarios. Why does deja vu play out some times. What are the odds our dreams become a reality the exact way we thought. Could we possibly be an illusion? Could allusions be alerting us in our future.

    I have had many illusion that have came true. For example, I had the illusion that my first kiss would be 8th grade during the night by a fire. What happened? That happened. My first hook up was predicted on Homecoming. Don't know when but homecoming. Guess what happened? Booyah homecoming this year first legit hookup.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Shed12
    What is reality? What is illusion?

    I do not mean which things are real and which things are illusory but what is realness itself and what is illusion itself. Telling which is which is not useless or discouraged, but if you will, can you explain why this is real and that is not?
    Reality, by definition, requires verifiability.

    Exist, by definition, requires verifiability.

    Truth, by definition, requires fact.

    Fact, by definition, requires indisputable verifiability.

    Only scientifically observable, empirical evidence can be properly described with the terms, reality, exist, truth, and fact.

    What I have described so far, can be categorically identified with the term Quanta (quantifiable, verifiable).

    A key characteristic of Quanta is that it is value-neutral.

    Everything that we humans find meaningful and important is Qualia (qualitative, experiential).

    Concepts like, faith, hope, love, free will, and infinity are categorically Qualia.

    Qualia may or may not qualify as "illusion" (depending on how you prefer to define "illusion") but Qualia does not (and can never) qualify as either extant, real, true, or fact.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @secularmerlin
    There would be no way to distinguish between a  truly convincing and persistent illusion and reality. 
    Well stated.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Understand that God is a prankster, a cunning oligarch who enjoys the sadistic deceit of the masses as they kill each other in her name.


  • Mopac
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Reality, by definition, requires verifiability.

    Full Definition
    • 1 : the quality or state of being real
    • 2 a (1) : a real event, entity, or state of affairs<his dream became a reality(2) : the totality of real things and events <trying to escape from reality
      b : something that is neither derivative nor dependent but exists necessarily
    • 3 : television programming that featuresvideos of actual occurrences (as a policechase, stunt, or natural disaster) — often usedattributively <reality TV>


    Exist, by definition, requires verifiability.

    Full Definition
      intransitive verb
    • 1 a : to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largestgalaxy known to exist
      b : to have being in a specified place or withrespect to understood limitations or conditions<strange ideas existed in his mind>
    • 2 : to continue to be <racism still exists in society>
    • 3 a : to have life or the functions of vitality<we cannot exist without oxygen> 
      b : to live at an inferior level or under adversecircumstances <the hungry existing from day to day>

    Truth, by definition, requires fact.

    Full Definition
    • 1 a archaic : fidelityconstancy
      b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
    • 2 a (1) : the state of being the case : fact(2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritualreality
      b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>
      c : the body of true statements and propositions
    • 3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
      b chiefly British : true 2
      c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
    • 4 capitalized Christian Science : god


    Fact, by definition, requires indisputable verifiability.
    Full Definition
    • 1 : a thing done: as 
      a obsolete : feat 
      b : crime <accessory after the fact
      c archaic : action
    • 2 archaic : performancedoing
    • 3 : the quality of being actual : actuality <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
    • 4 a : something that has actual existence<space exploration is now a fact
      b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
    • 5 : a piece of information presented as havingobjective reality

    __________





  • Mopac
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    --> @3RU7AL

    You should put "known" before every one of your "by definition" statements, because according to my dictionary none of what you are saying is true.

    Something doesn't have to be verifiable to be real. Your inability to verify the existence and contents of my refrigerator does not negate the reality of it and its contents.



  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Mopac
    Reality: "things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them" (verifiable, not imaginary). 

    Exist: "have objective reality or being" (quantifiable, not imaginary).

    Truth: "that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality" (verifiable, not imaginary).

    Fact: "a thing that is indisputably the case" (verifiable, not imaginary).
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Mopac
    Something doesn't have to be verifiable to be real. Your inability to verify the existence and contents of my refrigerator does not negate the reality of it and its contents.
    Hypothetically if you and I were in the same room, looking at the same refrigerator, we would be able to verify the contents of the refrigerator and come to some agreement on their description.

    As it stands, you may or may not actually have a refrigerator and it may or may not have any specific contents.

    You undoubtedly consider the hypothetical refrigerator and its contents to be "real", but that is only because you are (presumably) able to verify their existence.

    Your story does not seem far-fetched to me and as such, I believe it is plausible, however it is not "real" (to me) until I've either accepted your story on faith, or I have verified it for myself.

  • Mopac
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Knowledge =/= Truth

    I don't believe it is possible for you to refute this.