Enough of this Presumption!

Author: EtrnlVw ,

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  • EtrnlVw
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    I've heard just about enough of the widespread presumption about those who interpret the universe as a product of intelligence assume it so because we "want it that way", and because we "want it that way" we base all of our observations through that wishful way of thinking.

    What a bunch of nonsense, it's disrespectful and downright interruptive to intellectual progress and in no way is it a productive way to determine the truth of what we are all here for. Get a grip, those of you who are either atheists or those who maintain a materialistic ideology of the world have no more of a grounded, intelligent interpretation of the universe through observation and evidence than Theists do. This has nothing to do with what anybody wants, it's not an emotional evaluation, that is not the factor that is involved in making a determination whether or not the universe is more than a product of matter and material.

    It is very insulting, at least to a guy like me, who has spent countless hours, years and most of his life weighing evidence and sifting through information to uphold the most accurate way of making decisions and conclusions. I'm also a guy who has had many spiritual encounters and those experiences had nothing to do with what I "wanted", rather they were thrusted upon me and I observed them from a position of learning and curiosity. Never has it crossed my mind that my beliefs (if you wish to label them that) would be based on what I wish to be the case, that's so far from the truth whenever I read someone making that assumption it disgusts me.
    To me, it seems like a way for the opposition to make themselves feel superior and really it simply is a way to stifle progress in a conversation. I guess it's easier for the guy that happens to be an atheist to assume the other guy is just a product of what he wishes to be the case, and again it's downright dirty! it is a very demeaning condescending accusation to say the least.

    As I've been saying in this forum, there's really only two interpretations we have to choose from in regards to the origins of the universe, and with the universe being the target of this subject it's either a product of matter or a product of intelligence. This is not rocket science, it's not an emotional issue either and so it's not that hard to make an educated well-formed estimation which interpretation is probably most likely true. In my observations over the years, it seems to me that Atheists and those who interpret the universe from a materialistic perspective get off on feeling superior to their Theistic counterparts. They get off on believing the idea that somehow they've made a more educated assessment of the world and then they walk around acting all high and mighty. This is not directed towards all Atheists, some of whom I have engaged with are very beautiful people! very thoughtful and very bright individuals.

    But let me make this clear, it doesn't amount to wishful thinking to have a theistic interpretation of the universe. There are many ways to make that assessment and what we "want" has no bearing on that decision. I'm not saying that there's no such a thing as confirmation bias or that maybe some individuals want their beliefs to be true, but overall in a forum like this one where we are all here to establish logical and educated estimations those types of assumptions are useless, it just makes the person asserting those claims look immature and ridiculous.

    I come here to show there's much more to the equation than indoctrination and wishful thinking by presenting well thought out and unbiased content. So it is a slap in the face when I read some snotnose making such absurd claims and then actually believing them. There's nothing superior about interpreting the universe as a product of matter as opposed to a product of mind and thought, nothing at all actually and there's no more evidence in favor of that position than there is for the other. As a matter of fact, materialists like to fancy themselves as ones who have the evidence on their side as if somehow science supports their views lol, it doesn't. We use the scientific method to understand the processes of the universe and how they work, but science is a neutral study and those processes can be just as much interpreted as products of intelligent work than as products of mechanical matter. Science does not make additional claims it cannot account for, it's not an ideology or a worldview. Atheists and materialists interpret the works of science just as Theists interpret the same body of works...and they can because again, science is a neutral study it is not a materialistic or atheistic methodology.

    The fact that the universe absolutely appears to be a product of intelligence has nothing to do with what "I want", the fact that there are countless spiritual encounters across the globe in every culture and on every continent has nothing to do with what I want. I can't change the fact that many religions and religious cultures have come to the same conclusions I have and that had nothing to do with me. I had zero influence on any of that and I can't change that I'm simply observing it. All the indicators that a Creator exists has nothing to do with what I want, my own experiences and my own observations of the world have nothing to do with what I want. I'm a person observing the world from a neutral position trying to make the most accurate assessments possible according to what I have to work with, and again, has nothing to do with what I want.

    I can only make the assumption that other Theists are using the same honest and sincere evaluations to make their determinations, and to me it's a cheap shot for anyone to assert another's position to be a product of what they want to be the case. So if you're a person making this assumption back up a few steps, take a breath and realize that your position holds no more water than your brothers who hold a theistic view of the world, at least in terms of honest sincerity of heart and curiosity....and each interpretation has a legit premise and foundation. Interpreting the world Theistically doesn't rely on wishful thinking or confirmation bias, it is one out of two options that our existence originated and at least according to me all the logic follows and is held up by rationale and evidence. Materialism is not a superior option although it can be accepted by the beholder obviously as a stronger interpretation. However, being humble about your brothers opposing views will only help your quest for truth about our world. Asserting nasty and hasty generalizations about other possibilities and those who seek them will only make you less of a person, and make your views of the world shallow and less approachable.

    Although both materialism and theism are in stark contrast to one another a person can really only make one out of two estimations and so to accuse the other party of being intellectually inferior and only estimating according to "what they want" is a very pompous assertion when in reality it simply comes down to what is more obvious to the person holding the view. We should come to the table first assuming that the person we are debating has made the same conclusions out of sincerity as our own selves. 

  • FLRW
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    --> @EtrnlVw

    Read the book, The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning: Why the Universe Is Not Designed for Us by Victor J Stenger.  A number of authors have noted that if some physical parameters were slightly changed, the universe could no longer support life, as we know it. This implies that life depends sensitively on the physics of our universe. Does this "fine-tuning" of the universe suggest that a creator god intentionally calibrated the initial conditions of the universe such that life on earth and the evolution of humanity would eventually emerge? In his in-depth and highly accessible discussion of this fascinating and controversial topic, the author looks at the evidence and comes to the opposite conclusion. He finds that the observations of science and our naked senses not only show no evidence for God, they provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist.
  • janesix
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    --> @FLRW
    And you believe that?
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @FLRW
    He finds that the observations of science and our naked senses not only show no evidence for God

    Perception is not a fact, its an individual perspective of their interpretations. 

    , they provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist.

    Lol, good one. 

    A number of authors have noted that if some physical parameters were slightly changed, the universe could no longer support life, as we know it. This implies that life depends sensitively on the physics of our universe.

    This in no way contradicts a theistic interpretation of our universe, it only signifies that the laws of physics are precise in ways. Maybe instead of being subjected to other atheistic pieces of literature you do your own thinking. You may be surprised how you then see the world. 

     In his in-depth and highly accessible discussion of this fascinating and controversial topic, the author looks at the evidence and comes to the opposite conclusion.

    You sound like you're reading the back of a book. 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @FLRW
    Does this "fine-tuning" of the universe suggest that a creator god intentionally calibrated the initial conditions of the universe such that life on earth and the evolution of humanity would eventually emerge?
    yes it does appear that way


  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    You sound like you're reading the back of a book. 
    LOL it does
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Lol one of this guys problems is that he's put so much trust in people of a specific mentality and ideology. Because of that conditioning all he's capable of is to parrot what he's been led to accept. If he reads "they provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist" (even though that's impossible) he believes it. If they tell him all Theists are the results of mental impairment he believes it, if they tell him to jump he jumps and if they say sit he sits. He's basically lost his ability to formulate his own thoughts and freedom to make his own estimations. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    One of the tactics used to convince atheists is to get them believing all theists are stupid and indoctrinated, and more than likely they have a mental illness lol....this makes them feel special like they are now "free thinkers" and gives them a sense of pride and superiority. From there the brainwashing is easy and ironically they mock the religious as being "sheep" but then they themselves become victims of the same process. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Sounds like you are getting fed up with some posters who disagree with you.
  • EtrnlVw
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    Sounds like you are getting fed up with some posters who disagree with you.
     
    Not necessarily with me, but theists in general. I think it gets in the way of useful dialogue, it also creates the illusion that the user has some advantage point. I'm just bringing up to bring awareness to the ignorance of such an assumption. 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Yep i totally agree, this attitude is seen everywhere in atheism, because atheism used to be counter-culture, many of them still think in this arrogant framework where there the only smart ones who casted away from silly religion. Of course that is total nonsense but it is definitely seen in atheist culture.
  • FLRW
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     Lesions in the prefrontal cortex of the brain explain the fact that there are countless spiritual encounters across the globe in every culture and on every continent.
    Psychologists have always been fascinated as to why some people believe in a higher being, while others are happy to accept that we are alone in life. Now researchers claim they have found a region of the brain that, when damaged, may increase the likelihood that a person will hold fundamental religious beliefs. In particular, they found that damage to this region reduced cognitive flexibility – the ability to challenge one’s preexisting beliefs when presented with new evidence. 


  • Tradesecret
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    Desperation pushes people to try and find some reason for why so many people believe in and trust God.  And this is not the desperation of the theists - but those who wish they were. Which incidentally is EVERY atheist. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    You just go ahead and vent all the things you've been led to believe my dear Flower, get it all out pal. 
  • ethang5
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    You sound like you're reading the back of a book. 
    That was posted to an atheist website. FLRW has to check a link to able to tell you what he thinks.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @Tradesecret

    #9

    Getting fed up with people pointing out the logical alternatives.


    #13

    And vice versa.....As ever.


  • EtrnlVw
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    Psychologists have always been fascinated as to why some people believe in a higher being

    A secular psychologist would, and their confirmation bias would be reflected in their studies. 

    while others are happy to accept that we are alone in life

    And these are people that have no damage to the brain I assume lol?

     Now researchers claim 

    They can claim til they die, no one cares about their speculations except for drones like you...when their soul exits the physical body then they will know for sure. 

    a region of the brain that, when damaged, may 

    And for those who believe in a Higher Being who have no damage? This correlation you keep spouting is useless because it's completely irrelevant to whether or not God exists. I don't personally care what people believe who "may" have damaged brain. 
    If you're never going to contribute anything useful for my topics you might as well go play in another part of the forum.