Who was the God of Joseph, Son of Jacob?

Author: Stephen ,

Posts

Total: 30
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
According to the King James Version, Genesis 37:3 reads, "Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours."

But who was Joseph's God?
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,053
2
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
2
3
3
ok, YHWH.

Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @keithprosser
ok, YHWH.
Speculation? Do you know this for certain? How do you know?

It would be nice to hear from some who knows rather than someone who doesn't believe a single word of the scriptures.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Stephen
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Israel, Joseph's father, is Jacob.




Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Israel, Joseph's father, is Jacob.

Ok, what was this particular gods name? It has been suggested that Joseph's - he of many colours -  god was "YHWH". Is this correct  and can you show me the scripture that clearly states this to be the case?
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,053
2
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
2
3
3
It is not explicitly stated.

I wonder where this is going..!

Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @keithprosser
It is not explicitly stated.
 And how do you know? Or is this more time wasting conjecture from you for fun?

And why should it concern you? I am only interested in what Christians or Jews believe to be fact, and not an  atheist opinion or conjecture no matter how much fun you say you get out of it. 
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @keithprosser
It is not explicitly stated.
Then why do you say at post 2  above "ok, YHWH" ?
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 420
1
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
1
2
6
do you have reason to think the Joseph's idea of God was any different from his father's?

Clearly, verses like Gen 39:5 attest to the connection with the entity of the 4 letters whom Jacob was aligned to (Gen 32:10) and Gen 41:16 shows Joseph's claim to be connected to "Elo-him" which was the same word used to label the God-figure connected to Jacob/Israel in Gen 35:11.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @rosends
Genesis 35:11 states only:
"I am God Almighty". No name 
 
Genesis 39:5 
 Doesn’t say who this god is, it simply states “Lord”.

Genesis 32:10
 Nothing in that verse either, not even “lord”.

You state that  Gen 41:16


shows Joseph's claim to be connected to "Elo-him" 
It doesn't show any such connection only the word "god".
 Although “god”is mentioned in this verse he is not named. And neither is the Elo-him mentioned.

You have though introduced the  “Elo-him” to us which to my understanding is the plural – gods -  as shown in Genesis 3:5 “ye shall be as gods”, so which of these gods is the god of Joseph, with the coat of colours?
 
 
 

keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,053
2
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
2
3
3
Do you have a problem with including the text along with the ch+v numbers?   It's a pain having to open up blble sites and type/copy multiple verse numbers and frankly, I can't be bothered when its not clear what point you are (presumably) working up to.



rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 420
1
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
1
2
6
--> @Stephen
The Hebrew word Elo-him is used as a singular and a plural in different contexts (depending on the verb in the sentence) but both the 4 letter name and the word Elo-him are used to refer to the object of worship of Jacob and Joseph. In Judaism, God doesn't have a personal "name" but has titles by which we refer to Him. If you are stuck using translations then it will be difficult to show you the presence of identical words in the original.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Do you have a problem with including the text along with the ch+v numbers.

I  do want to clutter up the thread where  Ch+v numbers will do and neither does rosends above by the looks of things and  who has clearly and conveniently done so above. See post 9 above.

I can't be bothered 
Then don't. I would only get conjecture from you anyway and you haven't even bothered to address my question.

 you said: 
It is not explicitly stated.
Then why do you say at post 2  above "ok, YHWH" ?

You "can't be bothered" to clear that up either , I suppose.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
The Hebrew word Elo-him is used as a singular and a plural in different contexts (depending on the verb in the sentence)
Ok. Back to the point.
In Judaism, God doesn't have a personal "name" but has titles by which we refer to Him. 
That's interesting, The Christians have a name for their god it seems they have just inserted  vowels into the non Christian word "YHWH" for it to become Jehovah

If you are stuck using translations 

I don't think I am stuck  at all, and I don't want to bog the thread down unnecessarily over translations of plural gods etc . But it is beginning to look like that no one seems to know the name Josephs'  god.  
YHWH by most accounts simply means  " I am"  as revealed to Moses. As in mind your own business as to my name  "I am who I am". But that's just my own opinion.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 420
1
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
1
2
6
--> @Stephen
The Christians have a name for their god it seems they have just inserted  vowels into the non Christian word "YHWH" for it to become Jehovah

However, they have inserted the vowels as listed by the Jewish Masoretes who were specifically and intentionally using vowels which were not the correct ones -- they were importing the ones used with the consonants to create a separate word (ado-nai) so that we would remember that we AREN'T saying the proper four letter name. Interestingly, certain current bible printings within the Jewish community have deleted all the vowel points on the 4 letter name in order to make the same argument.

But it is beginning to look like that no one seems to know the name Josephs'  god.  
This is, assuming that there is a "name" that one can assign that goes beyond the titles that both Jacob and Joseph use.

YHWH by most accounts simply means  " I am"  as revealed to Moses.
Well, not all accounts. Within Judaism it is seen as a mash-up of the "to be" verb in 3 tenses, a made up combination to stress the eternal nature and identity of God (past, present and future). In the Hebrew, there is no "I am who I am" but there is "I will be that which I will be" (eh'yeh asher eh'yeh).
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
This is, assuming that there is a "name" that one can assign that goes beyond the titles that both Jacob and Joseph use.

What title/s does  Joseph use?

In the Hebrew, there is no "I am who I am" but there is "I will be that which I will be" (eh'yeh asher eh'yeh).
Sounds close to me.

keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,053
2
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
2
3
3
The Jacob/Joseph story is set a few generations before Moses, and they are characters in a legend not real people!   But we can ask what would
proto-Hebrews of that time may have believed.

The YHWHist priests of the Jews exiled in Babylon who wrote the bible wanted their people to believe that the Hebrews were essentially monotheistic followers of YHWH from the beginning, but it is now generally accepted that the Hebrews believed in a large pantheon of gods, as did most peoples of the ancient middle east.   It was usual for a tribe or city to adopt one god of the pantheon as their 'patron god' - such as Marduk of the Babylonians and YHWH of the Hebrew.

Over time - under the influence of their YHWHist priesthood  - the Hebrew religion changed from thinking of YHWH as being one god amongst many gods to being the only true god with all the other 'foreign' gods now false and blasphemous.  

Clearly a polytheistic religion need names to distinguish the multple gods but a monoetheism doesn't.   In Judaism a number of superstitions and taboos also grew up around the 'holy name' and various euphemisms, titles and circumlocutions were used further complicating giving a simple answer to the seemingly simple quesion 'Who as Joseph's god'?

rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 420
1
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
1
2
6
--> @Stephen
What title/s does  Joseph use?

Gen 39:9, 40:8, 41:16, 41:25, 41:28, 41:51, 42:18, 43:29, 45:5, 45:7, 45:8 and more places, Elo-him
The same "Elo-him" that, for example, Jacob says will be with him (48:21).
This is therefore connected to 39:21 (one example) where it says that the 4 letter name was with Joseph.

Are you positing that the two labels identify two separate entities?

Sounds close to me.
the present tense and the future tense are close?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Stephen
You are the only person I've ever met who interprets Joseph's "god" had to do with the many colored coat he made.

The God is The Truth.

And how Joseph fairs in Egypt is reflected by this, because The Egyptians were rendered dull and incompetent through their many idolatries.

Something you can even witness today in observing the difference between someone who lives to play videogames, watch TV shows, follow trends, novelties, and other vanities versus someone who is grounded in reality.

Idolatry makes people dull and incompetent, which will get you by in a dull and incompetent society, but exceptional people stay grounded in reality.

The story of Joseph is one of the more inspirational ones in the bible, because he went from being a slave to practically running the entire country by putting his whole heart into doing things the right way.

I have noticed that a lot if immigrants in particular are inspired by the story of Joseph. With good reason, it is a very good story and applicable to today.


And if you are trying to imply that Joseph was a devotee to some false god, I would say you are missing the point of the whole story. 


Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @Mopac
Stop with your nonsense.
I am making the distinction so any dimwits here won't misunderstand which Joseph I am writing about. I haven't said god made his coat you absolute clown.
Now address the topic or leave it. Do you, or do you not know who Joseph's - he of the coloured coat made by his father Israel -  god is. 
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @keithprosser
The Jacob/Joseph story is set a few generations before Moses, and they are characters in a legend not real people!  
 
Yes, I know. I don't care about that, this thread is clearly not asking for conjecture on  biblical history,  this has nothing to do with the question. You don’t know, you offer only conjecture. I don’t care about nor am I interested your conjecture.
 
 But we can ask what would proto-Hebrews Of that time may have believed.
 
 You can ask that if you want.  I am not asking anything of the sort.  So you start a thread of your own and ask yourself whatever it is you want. My question is simple and you can’t answer it.
 
 You have offered a name - YHWH you then tell me:
 
It is not explicitly stated.
 
I then have asked you - then how do you know Joseph's god was YHWH?   You haven’t answered. I am not interested in your conjecture. I want to know what the bible states.


So your input ends where you make it clear that  "-  It is not explicitly stated -" and  add " - they are characters in a legend not real people! ".  



ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,474
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
...which Joseph I am writing about.
You guys notice that for Stephen, there are two of everyone in the bible?
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Are you positing that the two labels identify two separate entities?

No. You suggested  "titles"  plural at post 15 above, when you made this interesting comment:

This is, assuming that there is a "name" that one can assign that goes beyond the titles that both Jacob and Joseph use.

 I have asked what titles did Joseph use , then you simply repeated your earlier answer

Elo-him
That is fine. It is also interesting. So can we safely assume that Josephs god was the same god as his fathers? In your honest opinion.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 420
1
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
1
2
6
--> @Stephen
That is fine. It is also interesting. So can we safely assume that Josephs god was the same god as his fathers? In your honest opinion.

Well, I can, yes. He uses the same language to refer to God and the text supports that the God figure was the same, so if nothing else, the writer of the text thought they were the same.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,069
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
--> @rosends
Well, I can, yes. 
An unnamed Elohim then?