How Does Jesus Expect To Get Away With Blatant Lies....

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  • Stephen
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    Stephen

    As a follow on from this thread concerning Jesus' own biblical contradictions where not a single Christian has taken on the challenge to explain here>> Titled: 

     If These Were Not Jesus' Own Contradictory Words....

    ....there is also the obvious blatant lie (one of many) told by the Christ himself that Christians will also have to explain or put into "context" for us.

    Jesus is under arrest and is being interrogated at his first trial by the high priesthood where he claims:


    John 18: 19-21.
     “I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said" .

    But is this true? 
     Answer, no, it isn't true by any means. 

    Just two of many examples are: 

    We know for instance that Jesus met with a rich Pharisee named  Nicodemus a "ruler of the Jews" in secret under the cover of darkness where it is said that Jesus taught him about the mysteries "of the kingdom of god".  John 3:1-3

    And there is the famous quote where Jesus admits to secret teachings for one section of the Jewish population while withholding such secrets teaching from others:  

    Hereplied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom ofheaven has been given to you, but not to them". Matthew 13:10-12.

    Can the faithful explain these lies told by the Christ himself?  














  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen



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    Stephen,

    I was under the impression that my brutal serial killer Jesus was represented as not being a liar: "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19)  Therefore, when you bring examples of Jesus outright LYING, and contradicting the passage in question, it is even harder to believe in His faith of Christianity. :(

    You will not get any pseudo-christians to partake within this thread because as shown recently within this forum, the pseudo-christian element have run out of cogent excuses in trying not to peel back the proverbial onion in exposing the REAL modus operandi of the serial killer Jesus the Christ.  Just watch! LOL.

    Of note to your topic at hand, unfortunately the word "deceiving" represents lying as well. Therefore I remember these passages a while back that support your disturbing position of Jesus lying to His Jewish Creation and contradicting Numbers 23:19.  We find Jesus, by proxy, putting a lie into the mouths of prophets in the book of 1 Kings, to wit: “Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)  As if one time wasn’t enough, Jesus did this again in the book of 2 Chronicles, to wit:  “Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.” (2 Chronicles 18:22)

    I will now stop with any further examples of Jesus lying, and this is because I am growing weary of my faith at this time.



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  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    Numbers 23:19God is not human, that he should lie
    So says the verse Brother. But it is clear that Jesus lied about being open and not doing anything in secret.



    You will not get any pseudo-christians to partake within this thread

    Well why would they, Brother.  They are on a hiding to nothing if they attempt to explain away what is just a very clear lie concerning Jesus'secrecy? As I said. There are very clear examples of Jesus being secret on many occasions too  that the Christian will have to explain away or put into " context" every single one.

    For instance, the many times he does something and orders someone  "not to tell". 

     Mark 3:12  But he gave them strict orders not to tell others about him.

    And here> 

    Mark 7:24 He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret.

  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    Occult secrets are like open secrets. We don't have to lie. We just speak plainly and if you have ears to hear and eyes to see, you understand. 

    It is true that Jesus was teaching secret things and yet he spoke them openly, like with his parables for example. 

    It is a secret (or more properly called occult) because not many people know it, not because it is not spoken about openly.

    I would have translated the greek words differently before putting the in the bible so as not to confuse people like you.

    You see the Greek language is highly contextual. They were high context communicators like the Japanese or to a lesser extent people from the southern part of the United States. English has become a low context language unfortunately, And so you are approaching a high context language with a lower vocabulary with a low context mindset. Just Google "high context speaker or language". These translations are not precise and only a true occult master could accurately translate the bible by understanding the contextualness that Jesus spoke in. 

    You still wouldn't understand it, but it would be more accurate. I know you wouldn't understand it because it is hard to remove the high context nature of the language but it would bring you closer to understanding. Don't believe me, than read the Enneads which are translated similarly to what I propose. 







  • Stephen
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    --> @Bringerofrain


    "Occult"simply means - hidden.

    Something hidden is not for public view, it is secret. The scriptures clearly state that Jesus taught Nicodemus in secret away from public view at night only , under the cover of darkness. Therefore , Jesus was teaching  not in the open, as he clearly claims to have done ( John 18: 19-21) but in secret. What he was teaching is irrelevant.

    Jesus admitted withholding certain teachings from the general populace while teaching "the mysteries" to others. Matthew 13:10-12.

    Jesus was forever telling people not to even mention his name or speak about him.  Mark 3:12. 

    Jesus  was forever trying to keep his whereabouts secret.  Mark 7:24.

    Jesus passed through Galilee because he did not want anyone to know where they were because he was teaching his disciples [in secret].Mark 9:30

    The thread is not about what Jesus was doing or what it was that he was saying in secret, the thread is concerned with Jesus saying :


    "I said nothing in secret".John 18: 19-21 when the "god breathed" scriptures tell us to the contrary. 

    So as I asked here about Jesus' own biblical contradictions>>>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words    ..... I ask again, is Jesus lying or have the New Testament authors put words into the mouth of the Christ?









  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    What are the other possible interpretations of those translated greek words besides "secret". Remember greek is a high context language so one word can have 30 meanings. Why do you think of the 30 meanings the correct translations were chosen 100% of the time. Also because it is a high context language, an accurate translation may actually take 200 words to properly translate 1 word. I assure you the translators did not go into that much detail
  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    I guess a direct response would be new testament authors (assuming you mean the translators) put words in Jesus's mouth
  • Stephen
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    --> @Bringerofrain


    What are the other possible interpretations of those translated greek words besides "secret".

    Well you tell me this; what did Jesus mean when he used the word "secret" ? John 18:20

  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    In that context it means in a general way nothing was secret. For example if a science teacher says there are planets in the solar system to kindergarteners. When he's talking to the 5th graders and says there are nine planets it's not really something he kept secret is more of an elaboration on the general concept. The Greeks really don't have the same word so we have to look at the context of what was said and use the original Greek language to decipher it from. 
  • Stephen
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    --> @Bringerofrain
    In that context it means in a general way nothing was secret.

     Jesus was on trial for his life. He was being interrogated about what he had been teaching  his disciples. There is no mistaking what he was being asked to reveal.

    The priests obviously believed Jesus to have been teaching secret (mysteries) things, in secret. Which he denies.:


    John 18:19-21

    The High Priest Questions Jesus

    19 Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.

    21 "I said nothing in secret". <<< So we are clearly talking about secrets and  secrecy. 

    Mark 9:30 talks about secrecy. Matthew 13:10-12 talks about secrecy  many many times.

    Jesus even admits at one point in the scriptures, refuses to  reveal any secrets to them.  And if you have read your scriptures you would know this yourself.

    Why are you attempting to waive away the fact that  all  this is to do with Jesus denying doing anything in secret, when on many occasions the bible makes it clear that Jesus did things in secret al the time and strictly orders people not to tell anyone. In other words " to keep it secret".



     



  • Soluminsanis
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    Does repeatedly blaspheming the Savior of humanity bring you meaning?


    Clearly what Jesus told nicodemus WASN'T in secret, otherwise his disciples wouldn't have know about it and wrote it down for the bast majority of humanity to read 2000 years onward.
  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    You are still ignoring that this is a translation from greek. In this context he means his overall message is consistent in public and private, but that of course certain people are getting more in depth teachings.

    You do know that Greek was a high context poetic language while English is an ugly straightforward language right? There is no such thing as an accurate translation from Greek. This is unlike other languages like German or spanish where translation is more straight forward. We have the same problems with ancient hebrew which was both poetic and mathematical. 
  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    Please learn greek before offering your interpretations. Or at least study the greek translation of each passage you are looking at
  • Stephen
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    --> @Soluminsanis
    Clearly what Jesus told nicodemus WASN'T in secret, otherwise his disciples wouldn't have know about it and wrote it down

    Jesus taught the same mysteries to Nicodemus in secret as he had done his disciples in secret. Read your bible. You will find the relevant verse in posts above.


    otherwise his disciples wouldn't have know about it and wrote it down.

    Well then we could adopt that attitude to the whole of the scripture couldn't we.

    How do the gospel writers know  the words spoken between Pilate an Jesus when there was only the two of them in the room?

    How do the gospel writers know what the Devil said to Jesus in the "wilderness" when there were only two of them present? 

    How do the gospel writers know that Jesus taught Nicodemus the "mysteries of the kingdom of god" when they had met in secret and there were only two of them present ?

    I could carry on in this vein  but I would like you to explain all the above before I do so.

  • Bringerofrain
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    Anyone with even a basic understanding of greek knows the greek word translated to secret means "more detail" in one context and in the other supposedly contradictory statement the word "secret" is not even translated from the same greek word
  • Stephen
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    --> @Bringerofrain
    You are still ignoring that this is a translation from greek

    No I have addressed that point. You claim it didn't mean secret, you haven't told me what it means .



    I asked you:

    Well you tell me this; what did Jesus mean when he used the word "secret" ? John 18:20

     You replied :
    " In that context it means in a general way nothing was secret".  

    Jesus may well have been telling them that everyone knew what he was teaching and he hadn't hidden nothing and all was known and in the open "and nothing was secret" , but that wasn't true was it? 

    I have asked you what Jesus  meant when he used the word "secret". So tell me what the word secret means in Greek.  I know it simply means "mystery OR HIDDEN". i.e something that is a mystery and the key known only to the few is a secret if they are not telling.

    The bible admits that Jesus taught "  the mysteries " in secret. . Jesus admits to teaching secret things IN SECRET.  Jesus lied.  And who could blame him, he was on trial for his life.

    Anyone with even a basic understanding of greek knows the greek word translated to secret means "more detail" in one context and in the other supposedly contradictory statement the word "secret" is not even translated from the same greek word
    You need to bone up on your Greek <<< with a capital G, my friend.


    A1.     Secret, Secretly [Adjective] kruptos "secret, hidden" (akin to krupto, "to hide"), Eng., "crypt," "cryptic," etc., is used as an adjective and rendered "secret" in Luke 8:17, AV (RV, "hid"); in the neuter, with en, "in," as an adverbial phrase, "in secret," with the article, Matt 6:4,6 (twice in each Matt 6:without the article, John 7:4,10; John 18:20; in the neuter plural, with the article, "the secrets (of men)," Rom 2:16; of the heart, 1 Cor 14:25; in Luke 11:33, AV, "a secret place" (RV, "cellar"). See CELLARHIDDENINWARDLY.


  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    True, If he lied here, I certainly wouldn't blame him. I just think in this context instead of saying secret it should have said something like 

    "They were taught the same general things in private, but in more detail"

    I don't see these things as contradictions though. I also think you're wasting your time arguing against people who would take the Bible in a very literal way. 

    The bible mentioning "milk for babes" is an acknowledgement that there is more to the teachings though than what you would get at face value. Paul told us all the same hermetic principle known thousands of years before he came along. "Milk for babes and meat for men" or the equivalent in terms of spiritual information. 





  • Stephen
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    --> @Bringerofrain
    True, If he lied here, I certainly wouldn't blame him.


     He did lie,  and I do not blame him.



    I just think in this context instead of saying secret it should have said something like..... 



    But he point blank said that  he spoke nothing in secret, regardless of what you or the gospel writers  think they should have said. 



    I don't see these things as contradictions though.
    I said Jesus lied or the biblical authors put words in the mouth of Christ .

    Just as it may have happened here where not a single christian has even attempted to square away what are contradictions spoken by Jesus himself. 



    I also think you're wasting your time arguing against people who would take the Bible in a very literal way. 

    Well. That is entirely up to me isn't it.
     


  • BrotherDThomas
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    .
    SOLUMINSANIS,

    I am sure that I am speaking for Stephen when I say that you are not welcome in this thread anymore than the equally dumbfounded of the Bible ethang5 because of your continued RUNAWAY tactics to disturbing biblical axioms.  This forum represents discussion upon religious topics, NOT running away from discussion upon religious topics, understood Bible fool?

    Case in point, you continue to RUN AWAY from my posts directed to you, as only one of many is shown in the link below:

    Therefore take your Satanic dog and pony show to a "Children's Christian Forum" where you will be more at home with your bible runaway modus operandi.


    .


  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    You are ignoring that it is a high context language still as well as other problems that come along with translations. If I say my hair is wet in english, everyone knows my hair is wet. The same phrase in greek would have over a thousand possible meanings. Japanese as a language has the same issues. I think high context languages are superior because they get points across quicker, but they come with the issue of being less precise. This is why Japanese lawyers make a killing. The good ones can twist the law however they want because of the languages high context, while american lawyers can see the law is usually pretty straight forward. A 55mph speed limit in america can only be interpreted in one way. 
  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Bringerofrain



    .
    Bringerofrain,

    YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE THAT GOES AGAINST JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS: "You do know that Greek was a high context poetic language while English is an ugly straightforward language right?" 

    The bottom line is the FACT that the passages in question say what they say without any reference to whether they were written in Greek, Chinese, Japanese, etc., get it?  You act as though one needs a crystal ball to determine in what they truly say, NOT!  Therefore you are calling Jesus a LIAR when His inspired words stated: “EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5). Do you understand?

     How far do you want to go in opening a Pandora's Box relative to the scriptures ARE NOT what they represent as given? 


    SIDENOTE: Your quote as "The Bringer of Rain" in your biography is equal to the MO of the Greek God Zeus, therefore are you trying to usurp His authority in this vein?




    .


  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    I am sure that I am speaking for Stephen when I say that you are not welcome in this thread 

    Indeed Brother.    You are correct.,  if he comes here and denies what it is the scriptures ACTUALLY do say  and then doesn't address the questions that I put to him..

  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    A high context language means it takes more work to translate properly. The translation of the bible is not sacred is it? Just the original words that also happened to have been written in Greek (a high context language) right?
  • Stephen
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    --> @Bringerofrain
    You are ignoring that it is a high context language

    Oh stop it FFS! I am ignoring nothing. But I will ignore you if you carry on this bullshite.

    Accept it, you are wrong. Jesus lied and I don't fkn blame him.

    I have shown you what the word "secret" meant in ancient Greek.  You have  made up some bullshit and tried to tell us that  " greek word translated to secret means "more detail"#15 <<<<< this is just absolute bullshit. I have offered you the ancient Greek lexicon. You have not even looked at it although I have highlighted the relevant word AND ITS MEANING for you and in its ANCIENT scriptural definition. It says exactly what I have said it means and as JESUS meant it . Take it or leave it.

    HERE IT IS AGAIN>>>>


    A1.     Secret, Secretly [Adjective] kruptos "secret, hidden" (akin to krupto, "to hide"), Eng., "crypt," "cryptic," etc., is used as an adjective and rendered "secret" in Luke 8:17, AV (RV, "hid"); in the neuter, with en, "in," as an adverbial phrase, "in secret," with the article, Matt 6:4,6 (twice in each Matt 6:without the article, John 7:4,10; John 18:20; in the neuter plural, with the article, "the secrets (of men)," Rom 2:16; of the heart, 1 Cor 14:25; in Luke 11:33, AV, "a secret place" (RV, "cellar"). See CELLARHIDDENINWARDLY.


    Do you see that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  !!!!!!/ It say HIDDEN





  • Bringerofrain
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    --> @Stephen
    High context language would mean that you have to look beyond the word. Google "high context language" . Japanese is similar in that regard. Dude just Google it. That means the word could have a thousand possible meanings depending on the context. So even looking up the definitions would not be enough to get to the true meanings, you would need access to a greek scholar who is familiar with that particular time period and regional history.

    It's cute that you think translations is an easy thing and all translated 100% know for a fact what was intended and have no controversies as to the meaning of anything