Pre-MEEP: Enforcable rule on colluders, live coaches, 'assisters'...

Author: RationalMadman

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King David of this fine establishment wants you all to know that there is no rule and he wants a MEEP.

An enforcable rule on using comments sections as well as general assistance and coaching of debaters during a debate both in general but especially in the Comments Section of that debate with live tips.

Should it be introduced?

I say yes and it should have punishment proportional to how extensive and precise the assistance was, not simply on how intentional it appears to be.
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Are there some examples of debates wherein the outcome was reversed by coaching or live tips?
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@oromagi
We may never know but most recently there's been two instances that demanded me to report, the most severe being this:

and also this in the same debate:

Those count as one instance.
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Oh good grief . . . . . . 

For those unaware, I posted a two comments that RM believes "assisted" a debate participant. 

Note for the record:

1. The debate has not begun, as no arguments have yet been posted.
2. Danielle had ample notice of my comments as they were posted for all to see.  To claim that she was prejudiced by them is frivolous, where indeed she could shape her entire case around preparing to oppose. 
3. The extent of what I said was limited to the obvious tactic that anyone paying attention would have thought of. 

Danielle's debate focuses on whether Donald Trump was a good president.  I speculated on how someone might oppose, given the oppressive nature of constraints she placed on CON.  But again, this was the substance of what I said:

Further,  all should consider that Danielle's "debate" isn't even challenged in good faith.  By her own admission, it was for "some comic relief" after she was "demoralized" by my corporal punishment debate that she did not even understand.  By her own admission, the terms I wrote went over her head.  

But based on RM's opinion and Danielle's response to my two very simple comments, you'd think I'd handed CON some kind of silver bullet.  

Was this the silver bullet for CON?  Read the terms of Danielle's debate, and judge for yourself:

Absent from this list are: China, Trade Deficit, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and dozens of others.
Though the description is funny, it doesn't analogize to my corporal punishment debate.

I also said:

I would also add that CON would be well advised to consider what it means to be a "good" president. I assume Danielle is going to argue that Trump's limited successes (ignoring the universe of the issues she lists) indicate that he is a "good" president.

That being said, the advisable strategy (if CON were so inclined) to actually sweep the leg out from underneath this would be to argue, at least:

1. No way to measure.

a. Presidencies are too complex.
b. "Good" is subjective.
c. Biases can't be discounted.

2. To the extent you can measure what makes a president "good":

a. That would be unreliable, because you'd fail to account for everything.
b. No objective way to weigh successes against failures.
c. It's too early, given the impacts of Trump's presidency are still unfolding.

Gee . . . . . . .  I really handed CON the keys to the city; garlic to the vampire, or whatever.   Whatever, I guess . . . . 





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I'd add that Danielle's indignation can't be taken seriously, where she brought this on herself.  So, her unclean hands preclude any right she may have had to complain about any minimal "assistance" (lol) I may have provided the kid who accepted.  

People act like somehow I'm a puppet master pulling strings from behind the scenes.  This doesn't even rise to the level of frivolity. 
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@RatMan

Is Debateart good, constructive breakfast time amusement or what?

Not to be taken quite so seriously.
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@RationalMadman
Doesn't it actually help you to be able to predict portions of your opponents arguments? Extra time to craft rebuttals.
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 Giving your opinion in the comments is not tantamount to "coaching" another user. We're a debate website, not the NSDA. 
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@MisterChris
Well said
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@zedvictor4
I totally agree.
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@RationalMadman
I think there's value in setting a line, but I think the place you're trying to set it is problematic.

For example, it makes sense to address comments from others that give debaters specific advice during the active debating period where both sides have already produced arguments. A debate is between the two debaters involved and should not include the comments section.

That being said, there have been many instances I've seen where commenters mentioned problems they had with a given sides' argument while the debate was going. I don't see that as a problem because it's not advice nor does it provide active direction.

You might say that the kinds of comments you're addressing in here fit into advice and direction, but the problem lies in the timing. If I went on an open challenge debate and pointed out numerous problems with how the resolution/description had been framed, stating that the instigator should modify it or risk those responses, then someone accepts the debate before they make those changes, I have technically given both advice and direction to the challenger. If I pointed out those same things after someone accepts the debate, using it as advice for the instigator, it would have the same impact on the debate. I don't see either of those instances as problematic, nor do I see efforts to examine what the debate can and cannot be about at those stages as problematic. When someone posts an argument, making one of the sides concrete, I think it's problematic to have commenters insert themselves into the debate. Before that, as far as I'm concerned, it's open season.
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I agree with essentially everything whiteflame said.
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@coal
That's great that you agree... Ironic but great. So let's get to making it a rule.
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@whiteflame
What you wrote is essentially total agreement with me except for if someone offers coaching to both sides at once. 
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I think not.
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@David
Why do you do things like make this comment:
This issue is certainly something I’d consider MEEPing

Then stay completely silent when someone else offers it?

You have a habit of doing this a lot, have you ever had to take the flack for an idea you support or do you just flip-flop on everything?

I am curious where you stand on this, since even that comment was supporting the other side before you said that. Please make it clear so we understand, I predict you'll just mimic the popular stance though.
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@RationalMadman
What you wrote is essentially total agreement with me except for if someone offers coaching to both sides at once. 
How does this markedly alter the circumstances? I don’t get why offering advice to both sides instead of one changes anything.
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@whiteflame
Because you have no idea which of those ideas would have come to the brain of the debaters nor if your wording of it would help them word it better (or ironically worse) than they originally would.

The help you offer each side assists the enemy too, to structure and prepare for rebuttals.
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@whiteflame
Additionally, the opponent of each may have structured things specifically to exploit that debater's style and flaws, failing to do so directly due to your assistance of the opponent which opened their eyes to something.
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@oromagi
Are there some examples of debates wherein the outcome was reversed by coaching or live tips?
Aside from the evidence that one significantly recently has potentially been altered, rules are not in place to stop what has happened (they can be inspired by it), they are instead in place to prevent what can go wrong in the future if one acted in a way that would negatively impact the community and fair competition elements of this website.
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@whiteflame
Every Chess website that I know of rules out using a computer engine and getting live coaching from another user during a match with advice and move-suggestions specific to the game being played, since the elo rating is meant to represent the individual's skill alone.
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@RationalMadman
Because you have no idea which of those ideas would have come to the brain of the debaters nor if your wording of it would help them word it better (or ironically worse) than they originally would.

The help you offer each side assists the enemy too, to structure and prepare for rebuttals.
But that's not really addressing my point, which is that the point at which assistance is provided matters, and not to whom it is provided. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "the enemy", but if you're informing both debaters, then the assistance you're providing should be even less concerning, since everyone is equally affected.

If you're concerned that the debaters aren't going to come up with their own ideas, I'd also say that that's problematic on a couple of fronts. First, debaters get ideas that come from the brains of other debaters in a dozen other ways, including PMs (if you make public comments about this off-limits, that's where these would go), forums, looking at previous debates, discussions IRL, etc. I don't see how this adequately prevents any cross-contamination in this regard. Second, I don't see the problem. If debaters were copy-pasting ideas from other debaters, that would be one thing, but there's recourse to punish that in voting. If they're taking basic concepts from others and finding personal ways to expand or reinterpret those concepts, why is that less valuable? I can speak from experience when I say that, when I was being coached and a coach would feed me an argument verbatim, I'd pretty thoroughly fuck up any explanation of that argument. So I'd say that the value of that information depends on an individual's ability to process it and convert it into a form that they can effectively utilize, which means it comes from "the brain of the debaters". 

Additionally, the opponent of each may have structured things specifically to exploit that debater's style and flaws, failing to do so directly due to your assistance of the opponent which opened their eyes to something.
I don't get this. You're saying that an opponent can use a debater's style and flaws against them, which is true regardless of what information they're given. Style and flaws have little to nothing to do with the information that is provided to them, otherwise a source or two could substantially alter both. It seems like you've more got a problem with someone actually providing a structured argument that imposes their style and flaws on the debater, which would mean that they've taken verbatim (or close enough as to make little difference) the arguments that someone else gave them. Again, there's plenty of room for voters to punish that kind of plagiarism, so I don't see why moderators have to do anything about it.

Every Chess website that I know of rules out using a computer engine and getting live coaching from another user during a match with advice and move-suggestions specific to the game being played, since the elo rating is meant to represent the individual's skill alone.
Chess is very different from debate. There may be a massive number of possible moves for the game, but there are clear tried-and-true strategies that are used by top chess players and they work pretty much across the board. For that matter, you can impose that kind of strategy on a relatively new player and it can be nearly as effective (lacking some of the nuance) as with an actual master player. The same does not apply with debate for many of the reasons I already described, in that debate strategies can't be so easily superimposed on a new debater, copy-pasting debate arguments already has effective routes to be punished, and we're only talking about providing initial strategies before the debate (which, at best, would be like telling a chess player what the first few moves of the game should be based on the first move of their opponent). I don't see these as equally harmful.
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@whiteflame
But that's not really addressing my point, which is that the point at which assistance is provided matters, and not to whom it is provided. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "the enemy", but if you're informing both debaters, then the assistance you're providing should be even less concerning, since everyone is equally affected.
Not at all for you to decide and 'equally affected' is extremely presumptive even if both debaters agree it was.

Not all scenarios where you assist both sides equally affects both sides whatsoever. Not even slightly. It would be an extreme miracle scenario where that was, in fact, the case.

The enemy of each debater is the other debater.

If you're concerned that the debaters aren't going to come up with their own ideas, I'd also say that that's problematic on a couple of fronts. First, debaters get ideas that come from the brains of other debaters in a dozen other ways, including PMs (if you make public comments about this off-limits, that's where these would go), forums, looking at previous debates, discussions IRL, etc.
Not necessarily, at the moment we have situations occuring where a poster who wouldn't PM to assist the other in an illicit manner is doing so. If people begin to gang together in PM groups of assistance, this will at first be something they get away with, of course, however it just takes one to snitch and things will begin to fall apart. Limitations of enforcement are never a good excuse to let something bad keep happening twice as much as it otherwise would (I predict this is more than twice actually, you're bringing up fringe cases which aren't the focus here).

The looking at previous debates is 100% allowed as is discussions IRL, the ability to use them within the limited time given per argument using only one's own brain and typing skills is what the rating of each debater should reflect in the end. It should not reflect the propensity to be helped by others, especially not during the debate.

Second, I don't see the problem. If debaters were copy-pasting ideas from other debaters, that would be one thing, but there's recourse to punish that in voting. 
Actually there isn't much. Sure direct copy and pasting without giving any credit is, however it will inspire them to think of things in ways they wouldn't necessarily have done so and that is a huge element of skill (or lack thereof) that is removed from being fairly assessed. I have not even the slightest clue where you are coming from here. You wrote on your profile you teach middle-school debating, there is no way on Earth that you would allow other students to live-assist a debater during a debate, period. You know why it's wrong and how severely you'd punish it already, you're lying here for reasons I do not understand. Stop the bullshit act, it isn't helping anyone.

The rest of your reply is the same stuff worded differently. Chess isn't very different from debating at all.
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Not at all for you to decide and 'equally affected' is extremely presumptive even if both debaters agree it was.

Not all scenarios where you assist both sides equally affects both sides whatsoever. Not even slightly. It would be an extreme miracle scenario where that was, in fact, the case.

The enemy of each debater is the other debater.
So... you get to decide, then? I was under the impression that this was an open discussion of whether this is good policy. You're the one talking about imposing a new standard for what moderation should do. It should be very clear that they have to do this, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.

I would argue that any attempt to help one side, especially if it's something that side uses verbatim, telegraphs what they're going to do to their opponent. Maybe it's just me, but knowing what's coming tends to be a pretty big help when it comes to preparing my arguments and responses. I agree, it's not an equal effect - if anything, I would say that the side that doesn't directly receive or utilize the advice given is probably in a better situation, largely because they're not tasked with superimposing someone else's ideas on their own, just with being prepared for a set of arguments - but I don't see how it has to be utterly equal. Perfectly equal effects aren't necessary for the point I'm making to apply: both sides benefit, so where's the harm?

Not necessarily, at the moment we have situations occuring where a poster who wouldn't PM to assist the other in an illicit manner is doing so. If people begin to gang together in PM groups of assistance, this will at first be something they get away with, of course, however it just takes one to snitch and things will begin to fall apart. Limitations of enforcement are never a good excuse to let something bad keep happening twice as much as it otherwise would (I predict this is more than twice actually, you're bringing up fringe cases which aren't the focus here).

The looking at previous debates is 100% allowed as is discussions IRL, the ability to use them within the limited time given per argument using only one's own brain and typing skills is what the rating of each debater should reflect in the end. It should not reflect the propensity to be helped by others, especially not during the debate.
I'm talking about a single person in a PM with another person, e.g. someone providing the very same ideas you see in these comments to the challenger. You don't need a gang of people to provide ideas like this. My argument isn't that enforcement is limited in other areas so all bets are off, it's that a lack of enforcement in this regard encourages people to post publicly while enforcement along the lines you're discussing turns everything private and negates any benefits the other side could get from seeing the advice being given. For that matter, though you argue that this does happen "twice as much as it otherwise would", I don't see any reason to believe that. You say you "predict" it, but you give no reasoning to support that. Moreover, I'm not talking about specific cases here, unlike you (you actually posted a couple of them). I'm talking about a broad number of cases. If someone feels inclined to help a side better understand their position, they will do so. It's not significantly harder to send a PM, but people post in the comments anyway because it's public and transparent. If you take that away, what's the barrier to sending PMs?

You didn't really address my reasons for why this kind of help isn't distinct from those I'm comparing it with. For some reason, those uses of limited time are fine, but being helped by others in this way is not? They're all forms of help. They're all opportunities to take someone else's argument and use it for your own. They all involve our ability to use "one's own brain and typing skills". I don't see the difference.

Actually there isn't much. Sure direct copy and pasting without giving any credit is, however it will inspire them to think of things in ways they wouldn't necessarily have done so and that is a huge element of skill (or lack thereof) that is removed from being fairly assessed. I have not even the slightest clue where you are coming from here. You wrote on your profile you teach middle-school debating, there is no way on Earth that you would allow other student to live-assist a debater during a debate, period. You know why it's wrong and how severely you'd punish it already, you're lying here for reasons I do not understand. Stop the bullshit act, it isn't helping anyone.
I don't get this argument. You're saying that these people are inspired "to think of things in ways they wouldn't necessarily have done", which is a problem no matter where those ideas come from. I've had a single source change my mind on how to approach a topic before and give me a novel structure to work from. Why isn't that source off-limits to me in the same sense? Why is someone's advice in the forums that tells me to completely change my structure not causing even more harm? Why shouldn't the skill involved in actually taking an idea someone else gives you in the comments, modifying it to fit your strategy and voice, and putting it on the page just as valid as you deriving that idea from other sources and doing the exact same thing?

Yes, I am a coach. I've actually coached both middle schoolers and college debaters. Know what we did? We talked about the topic ahead of time. We discussed strategies that we expected our opponents to use, and then designed counter strategies. I and many others would often inform those debaters of arguments that they were absolutely unaware of, and work together to draft contentions based on those arguments. That's WAY more involved than posting a few points about possible routes arguments could potentially take in the comments of a debate before it's begun. We're not talking about a live-assist play-by-play on every single round. We're talking about prep. There's nothing wrong with it, and I don't know why you see this as severely punishable when it's common practice in any number of debate tournaments. You can call this a "bullshit act," but I'm speaking from my experience.

You posted this Pre-MEEP. You wanted feedback. You're getting some that you don't like and you think I'm wrong. Fine. Convince others. You'll have a harder time with me. 
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@whiteflame
I didn't say I get to decide, I said the mod team and anyone who wants to chip in can decide as long as the general idea is that helping debaters during a debate is wrong. I made this thread because David suggested to, it's up to him to convince you.

I have no clue why anyone on this thread is supporting the opposite but I do know how groupthink works so the later opposers are probably just bandwagoning and maintaining status quo.

Your reasons for being against it are nothing more than nitpicking solely directed at something I said about it being based on how significant the help was. Can you offer a better measurement to scale the repercussion?

I don't understand a single thing you are raising as a point here, not even one. It's so crystal clear to me how wrong and fallacious what you are saying is that I don't want to rehash the rebuttals I just gave you once again. You can think whatever you want, people on this website can do what they want. It may take years or may never happen but eventually there will come a time if this isn't a rule, that someone keeps helping another debater with live, interactive tips and then you will realise the issue.
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@whiteflame
 I've had a single source change my mind on how to approach a topic before and give me a novel structure to work from. Why isn't that source off-limits to me in the same sense? 
That's your own research and brainpower at work. That's why.
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@whiteflame
What's the barrier to a college assignment you receiving tips and help specifically and far beyond what's acceptable level of assistance by someone else via PM? Nothing much, they can't even really get a legal warrant to search your device even if they suspect it.

Nonetheless, it's a rule right? Do you see how limitations of enforcement aren't justification for letting someone get credit for someone else's skills?
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@whiteflame
Know what we did? We talked about the topic ahead of time. We discussed strategies that we expected our opponents to use, and then designed counter strategies. 
Okay, that's not live or during the debate. Try again.
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@RationalMadman
I didn't say I get to decide, I said the mod team and anyone who wants to chip in can decide as long as the general idea is that helping debaters during a debate is wrong. I made this thread because David suggested to, it's up to him to convince you.
I'd welcome his insights.

I have no clue why anyone on this thread is supporting the opposite but I do know how groupthink works so the later opposers are probably just bandwagoning and maintaining status quo.
So, clearly, supporting the opposite view is just groupthink and bandwagoning, while you're clearly in the right. Great, glad you think so highly of yourself.

Your reasons for being against it are nothing more than nitpicking solely directed at something I said about it being based on how significant the help was. Can you offer a better measurement to scale the repercussion?
I'm not nitpicking. I'm explaining my position with reasoning that applies broadly, not just to a few examples. Also, only a small portion of my argument has been focused on the significance of the help provided. Not sure why such a scale is required because it's not important to my or your argument as far as I can tell.

I don't understand a single thing you are raising as a point here, not even one. It's so crystal clear to me how wrong and fallacious what you are saying is that I don't want to rehash the rebuttals I just gave you once again. You can think whatever you want, people on this website can do what they want. It may take years or may never happen but eventually there will come a time if this isn't a rule,
Don't know why your not understanding my arguments functionally makes them both wrong and fallacious. Seems like that's a pretty fallacious stance to take, but hey, what do I know? 


that someone keeps helping another debater with live, interactive tips and then you will realise the issue.
This seems like a sticking point for you, and you've mentioned it several times. The point appears to be that you don't like people giving "live, interactive tips" throughout the debate. Fine, we agree that's a problem. My issue is with the notion that, so long as the debate has started, even if no one has posted a single argument, those "live, interactive tips" are functionally the same as those that could come at any point after the first argument is posted. I don't see what changes as a result of someone accepting the debate. I do see what changes as a result of someone posting their first argument.

What's the barrier to a college assignment you receiving tips and help specifically and far beyond what's acceptable level of assistance by someone else via PM? Nothing much, they can't even really get a legal warrant to search your device even if they suspect it.

Nonetheless, it's a rule right? Do you see how limitations of enforcement aren't justification for letting someone get credit for someone else's skills?
I'm not following this comparison because "what's [an] acceptable level of assistance" for an assignment varies based on the assignment, and the same holds true depending on the type of debate you're doing. It depends. If you want to set the standard for this type of debate in this way, then fine, I understand that you have that relatively narrow view of what should be treated as reasonable within the confines of a debate. I don't share that view. And, once again, I'm not saying that the limitations of enforcement are a reason why I am opposed to this effort. 
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Here's the bottom line:

  1. To claim that comments on a debate posted before an open challenge debate is accepted, or arguments have been posted,  prejudices either debater is absurd.
  2. Even if those comments are relevant to potential arguments/evidence, each debater (potential or actual) has ample notice of them in any case; and more than enough time to adjust their strategy accordingly.
  3. Imposing a blanket-ban in no way changes the position for either debater.  It just vindicates people's irrational, emotional responses to things.  
  4. This so called pre-MEEP is itself improper.  When we write rules for our conduct, that has to start from some identifiable harm to someone we're seeking to prevent. No such demonstration has been made here. An emotional response to something is not now, and will never be, evidence that someone has actually been treated unfairly. People just need to learn to be good sports about things and play nicely with others. 
  5. Danielle's objections to what I wrote in her debate are unavailing where (a) she saw them, (b) she hadn't posted her round yet, (c) she had more than ten days to strategize around them, and (d) any idiot reading her "resolution" could have come up with the same thing in about five seconds. It's hardly like I gave Guigur some kind of silver bullet, wooden stake or even a chain of garlic cloves to ward off vampires here.