Ukrainian Independence

Author: Sum1hugme

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#31
fauxlaw
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@bmdrocks21
Oh? The smaller the country, the less need there ids of sovereignty?

Are you one of those neomarxists that wants to spread autocracy to the Middle East? I'm not trying to project things on you, just really getting those vibes......
#32
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@fauxlaw
Oh? The smaller the country, the less need there ids of sovereignty?
The less significance they have to American interests, the less of a sh*t I give

Are you one of those neomarxists that wants to spread autocracy to the Middle East? I'm not trying to project things on you, just really getting those vibes......
Me, a guy not wanting to intervene, wants to spread things to other countries? Interesting thought process (perhaps there was no thought process at all)
#33
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@bmdrocks21
You can dish it, but can't take it. Nice.
Topic's author
#34
Sum1hugme
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I think NATO should accept Ukraine as a member state and then Ukraine demand back Crimea from that position.
#35
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@fauxlaw
You can dish it, but can't take it. Nice.

Lmao, you are such a goof. I never understand how you come up with these comments.
#36
oromagi
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@Wylted
@bmdrocks21
->@fauxlaw
Why do I care if a relatively insignificant country is sovereign or not?

Are you one of those neocons that wants to spread democracy to the Middle East? I'm not trying to project things on you, just really getting those vibes......

-->@fauxlaw
Why give a shit if they take Ukraine by force?
Ukraine has the population of California but is about a third again as large in acreage.   Russia has committed six ethnic cleansings in Ukraine over the past 200 years *four in the last hundred) while the Nazis did another.   Each time, another generation of Russians moves in but slowly gets outnumbered by the remnant  ethnic Poles, Turks,  and Germans.   Based on Russian rhetoric, the point of Russia invading seems to be to do another cleanse.  Ukraine is next door to Russia but warmer and far more fertile with a good warm water ports- Ukraine has traditionally been the source of Russia's food whether independent or dependent- much the way California feeds America.  Russia covets Ukraine, and always will and Putin thinks delivering Ukraine again would make him the most popular Russian monarch since Peter I.  Russia could quickly double the size of its economy and historically, after Russia takes Ukraine they begin to contest with Germany over Poland and with Turkey over access out of the Black Sea.

The oft-repeated lesson of Russian history is that you can't invade Russia and once Russia takes Ukraine, Russia is very hard to stop.  The Ghosts of Churchill and Napoleon and Gustav IV and Wilhelm II are looking us in the eye today and saying, "best nip that particularly thorny flower in the bud."


#37
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@oromagi
Putin seems very nice in interviews. It doesn't seem like ethnic cleansing would benefit him. Have you read the Oliver stone interview?
#38
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@Wylted
Putin seems very nice 
That's the first they always say after the mass murderer shoots himself in the head, right- he seemed so nice.  Everybody agrees that Hitler was super nice in person.

"Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." -George Santayana
#39
Wylted
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@oromagi
Jesus LOL. Dude is not Hitler. He is just somebody who is looking to allie with America for mutual benefit. He has really brought his country from 3rd world shithole to someplace tolerable to live and helped millions.
#40
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@Wylted

Jesus LOL. Dude is not Hitler.
But as we've established, you aren't very well informed on  just about every subject we discuss.  You certainly don't  know much history.  You just believe whatever you read on twitter and infowars and a huge amount of that originates with Russia and China.  Researchers estimate that 45% of all tweets about coronavirus came from bots, and most of those controlled by Russian or Chinese teams.  You are literally taking Putin's propaganda to heart.

Hell, Putin is so sick of foreign policy experts and historians and Russian expatriates and world leaders and comedians and generals all agreeing that Putin is the next Hitler that he made the State Duma pass a law last month that

  • bans all comparisons between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany 
  • bans any denial that the Soviet people were not the decisive factor in Hitler's defeat
  • and
  • bans any denial that the USSR's liberation of Europe was not an entirely humanitarian mission
"Our principled position is to put a legislative barrier to the explicit insults against our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, disgusting speculations about our Victory and allowing political capital to be earned for speaking ill of our ancestors"

Sounds like something, oh, I don't know, Hitler might do.


He is just somebody who is looking to allie with America for mutual benefit.
Yeah, we could call it  Molotov-Ribbentrop II

He has really brought his country from 3rd world shithole to someplace tolerable to live and helped millions.
All for the low, low, price of democracy, liberty and equality.  Yes, Russia is a little better able to feed itself now than 20 years ago but the whole Russian economy is pretty much pegged now  to price of oil, which might be fine in the short term but spells disaster in the long term.  All reports suggest that the pandemic is out of control in Russia- estimates are 40% infection rates in the big cities.  Just grave counting by satellite images suggests that official estimates are less than 20% of reality and Russia has no democratic outlet or remedy or correction. As one Moscow demographer says about COVID statistics, "Putin is lying as if we are morons"

Liberals like me believe that democracy is the optimal form of governance and that nations aren't stable until they get and keep democracy for themselves.  To any lover of freedom, Russia is at least one revolution shy of being a tolerable place to live.

Think of that famous what if-  If you could go back and assassinate Hitler, would you?  Well, Hitler is back and his name is Vlad and he only gets harder to kill from here on out.



#41
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Liberals like me believe that democracy is the optimal form of governance and that nations aren't stable until they get and keep democracy for themselves
Why? If people are easy to propagandize and are generally stupid, why do you think that randos should be in charge of policy? 

Don't democracies just have citizens always voting on getting free shit until the country implodes?

Besides that, democracy seems a shitty way to maintain freedom. Citizens want laws against free speech. We had the comic book code, SJWs wanting hate speech banned and in a lot of democracies it is illegal to read the wrong books. 

Researchers estimate that 45% of all tweets about coronavirus came from bots, and most of those controlled by Russian or Chinese teams.  You are literally taking Putin's propaganda to heart.
I thought the media was trustworthy and could be trusted to report important and reliable things. I never saw this being big news. Are you saying that Trump was right to call the media fake news (rhetoric meaning sensationalistic among other things).?

Why would russia and China care what american citizens think of Corona virus. I guess if they were pushing the quarantine meme to destroy our economy it makes sense.

#42
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@Wylted
Why? If people are easy to propagandize and are generally stupid, why do you think that randos should be in charge of policy? 
because in any other method, the policy does not reflect what is best for the people. It exclusively reflects what is best for the rich and powerful. 

Don't democracies just have citizens always voting on getting free shit until the country implodes?
No. Democracy has never caused a country to implode. Poor leadership, military coups etc are usually responsible. 

Besides that, democracy seems a shitty way to maintain freedom. Citizens want laws against free speech. We had the comic book code, SJWs wanting hate speech banned and in a lot of democracies it is illegal to read the wrong books. 
so to maintain freedom, you think only the rich and powerful should get a say in what the rules are? That is the exact opposite of freedom. That is tyranny. 

I thought the media was trustworthy and could be trusted to report important and reliable things.
twitter isn't media. also, there is lots of "media" that is just propaganda. OAN and Fox "news" for example. So no, you can't just believe what "media" says either. 

Are you saying that Trump was right to call the media fake news (rhetoric meaning sensationalistic among other things).?
people can be wrong, corrupt or just biased in any line of work. But at least organized media has standards they need to follow. Random garbage on twitter (or whatever other dark corners of the internet you get your conspiracy theory nonsense from) does not. And trump lies pretty much constantly. So him calling other people "fake news" is incredibly ironic.

Why would russia and China care what american citizens think of Corona virus. I guess if they were pushing the quarantine meme to destroy our economy it makes sense.
it's not about pushing one narrative or another. It's about creating division. That is why their bots push both far left and far right wing propaganda. The point is to make Americans hate each other to paralyze America. If the US government has to spend more time trying to manage their own people because they think there are brain control chips in flu shots, they have less time and energy do actually useful things. 
#43
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@HistoryBuff
so to maintain freedom, you think only the rich and powerful should get a say in what the rules are? That is the exact opposite of freedom. That is tyranny
No, proven altruistic experts. 
#44
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@HistoryBuff
it's not about pushing one narrative or another. It's about creating division. That is why their bots push both far left and far right wing propaganda.
Do you know america would be better off if either the far right or the far left took over? 
#45
oromagi
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@Wylted
No, proven altruistic experts. 
Like Putin, who has to prove his altruism by making it illegal  for any of his subjects to say he is not altruistic

#46
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@Wylted
Do you know america would be better off if either the far right or the far left took over? 
The Founding Fathers' intent was to make sure that nobody took over from any one party, that at least every two years Americans had a chance to reverse any excessive domination.   The idea is a constant tug-o-war, push and pull,  dynamic tension and constant self-examination from which only the sturdiest and smartest ideas survive.

If one side "takes over" then democracy is dead.

#47
bmdrocks21
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@oromagi
  Based on Russian rhetoric, the point of Russia invading seems to be to do another cleanse.  
What rhetoric are you referring to?

 Russia covets Ukraine, and always will and Putin thinks delivering Ukraine again would make him the most popular Russian monarch since Peter I.
So as you say, there has been a historic special relationship between Russia and Ukraine. That would suggest that their attitudes toward Ukraine aren't going to translate into world domination.

Russia could quickly double the size of its economy
Russia's GDP is $1.7 T while Ukraine's is $153.8 B. And that doesn't include the infrastructure that would be destroyed in a war. 

The oft-repeated lesson of Russian history is that you can't invade Russia and once Russia takes Ukraine, Russia is very hard to stop.  The Ghosts of Churchill and Napoleon and Gustav IV and Wilhelm II are looking us in the eye today and saying, "best nip that particularly thorny flower in the bud."

Maybe, but another good lesson from history is that involving yourself in everyone else's wars and policing the world destroys empires. It happened to Spain, France, and Britain. They overextended themselves and warred with everyone. It is already happening to us. Our empire is in decline, so I'd rather not shell out trillions more for some country that has little significance to us.
#48
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@Wylted
so to maintain freedom, you think only the rich and powerful should get a say in what the rules are? That is the exact opposite of freedom. That is tyranny
No, proven altruistic experts. 
and who decides who these experts are? if the people don't get a say, then presumably the people with money and power would decide. And if they are the ones deciding, then they are going to pick people who will benefit them. And then they aren't altruistic experts any more, they are pawns of the rich. 

The best possible way to make sure the system benefits the people as a whole, is the give the people as a whole control of the system. If you take that control and only allow a chosen few access, it guarantees corruption and abuse. 

it's not about pushing one narrative or another. It's about creating division. That is why their bots push both far left and far right wing propaganda.
Do you know america would be better off if either the far right or the far left took over? 
I guess it depends on your definition of "far left". Republicans would label the policies of the governments of most other 1st world countries as "far left". So if you think universal health care and free education means "far left", then yes america would be far better off with the "far left" in charge. If you use the definition most of the world would use, for example communism, then no. But in my experience most people on here don't have any idea what "far left" means. Like anyone who has ever called Biden "far left" has no idea what that means. 

But again, the russians aren't interested in helping the left or the right. They just want to foster division. To push as many people to the extremes as possible to force them to fight each other instead of realizing that they should be working together to fight against their actual enemies. 
#49
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@bmdrocks21
Simple. Much as you would like, you do not live in my head.
#50
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@oromagi
Superb analysis
#51
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@fauxlaw
Simple. Much as you would like, you do not live in my head.

Your head is pretty messed up. I'd prefer to live in a safer place.
:P
#52
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@bmdrocks21
Russia isn't even our enemy at this point. Hell. we practically greenlighted their petroleum pipeline, we should help them stabilize Ukraine as well.
#53
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@bmdrocks21
p@oromagi
  Based on Russian rhetoric, the point of Russia invading seems to be to do another cleanse.  
What rhetoric are you referring to?
  • On April 7th, Putin's Deputy Chief of Staff Dmitry Kozak, said that Russian forces could intervene to "defend Russian citizens".
    • "Everything depends on the scale of the fire," he said " If there is, as our president says, Srebrenica (Bosnian genocide of 8,000 Muslims) apparently we will have to step in"
      •  He said Ukrainian officials  were like “children playing with matches.  I support the assessment that the start of military action - this would be the beginning of the end of Ukraine: not a shot in the leg, but in the face".
      • Amid a mounting chorus of anti-Ukrainian hysteria on Kremlin-controlled Russian TV, popular prime time host Dmitry Kiselyov [and Putin apparatchik] used his flagship current affairs show on April 11 to brand Ukraine a “Nazi state,” claiming that Russia may be forced to intervene militarily in order to “De-Nazify” the country.
"During its troop buildup on the border, the Kremlin produced new rounds of disinformation. Moscow’s propaganda ludicrously claimed that Kyiv was preparing an invasion of the Russian-occupied Donbas. It compared the situation of ethnic Russian speakers in the region to that of the victims of Bosnia’s Srebrenica massacre in 1995, when thousands of Muslim men were killed by Serb forces. The Russian media also put out misleading messages asserting that the United States was in full control of Kyiv’s actions and that the Kyiv government was Washington’s poodle. These narratives amplify longstanding disinformation themes that the Kremlin established in response to the Ukrainian prodemocracy uprising in 2014 that challenged Russia’s influence there. These proclaim that Ukraine is a puppet of the West, that there was a “civil war” in the country, that pro-Russian fighters in the east were “separatists,” and that Ukraine was either fascist and rabidly antisemitic or a failed state.

 Russia covets Ukraine, and always will and Putin thinks delivering Ukraine again would make him the most popular Russian monarch since Peter I.
So as you say, there has been a historic special relationship between Russia and Ukraine. That would suggest that their attitudes toward Ukraine aren't going to translate into world domination.
But the fact that Russia has invaded Georgia twice, Chechnya twice, Abkhazia, Transnistria, North Ossetia, Tajikistan, Dagestan, the North Caucasus and Syria since the fall of the Soviet Empire would suggest that Putin won't stop at just Ukraine.  Putin wants the empire of his youth restored.

An important defining characteristic of Putin's dictatorship is his definition of Russian sovereignty.  When Putin took power in 2000, he made it clear that the border of Russia did not define Russian sovereignty- that he was the sovereign leader of ethnic Russians everywhere- Europe, Israel, the United States doesn't matter.  If Putin doesn't like the way America is treating Russian immigrant in the US, Putin has made it clear that he considers Russia to have the right and responsibility to intervene- even if those immigrants are second generation US citizens.  While foreign militaries might constrain his reach, he does not consider any other country's sovereignty to take priority over the well-being of ethnic Russians however he chooses to define that term.

Russia could quickly double the size of its economy
Russia's GDP is $1.7 T while Ukraine's is $153.8 B. And that doesn't include the infrastructure that would be destroyed in a war. 
I agree quickly double is imprecise and not really  knowable but keep in mind that with the Ukraine in hand, Russian outlays in the energy and agriculture sectors decline significantly.  Like California, the Ukraine would be a major engine for economic growth.

The oft-repeated lesson of Russian history is that you can't invade Russia and once Russia takes Ukraine, Russia is very hard to stop.  The Ghosts of Churchill and Napoleon and Gustav IV and Wilhelm II are looking us in the eye today and saying, "best nip that particularly thorny flower in the bud."
Maybe, but another good lesson from history is that involving yourself in everyone else's wars and policing the world destroys empires. It happened to Spain, France, and Britain.  They overextended themselves and warred with everyone.
Strongly disagree.  The Spanish, French, and British empires all failed from the civil disruption caused by racism and massive inequality.  If Spain or England had simply swallowed their racism and offered full citizenship to their colonial subjects, either would still be the world's biggest superpower today.  Same principle for the French Empire although perhaps to some degree less than superpower.  England could have easily kept power in the US, Canada, India, coastal China, So. Africa, Egypt, Pakistan, Australia and so dominated the globe and prevented both world wars if they had simply given those colonies full citizenship, full representation in Parliament and the full legal and military protection of the United Kingdom.

England and France didn't lose power after the World Wars because they had overextended themselves.  They lost power because they used their colonies hard for soldiers and raw materials in crisis  but then  refused to grant citizenship or even a sliver of the franchise in exchange to peoples who had made terrible sacrifices on their behalf- the exact same reason the US rebelled after the French and Indian Wars.

The lesson to the US is not to back down when bullies advance but rather to keep extending the freedom and prosperity of democracy until people everywhere control their own destinies.  To that end, we should offer Puerto Rico, Washington DC, American Samoa, Guam, etc. full US citizenship immediately. 




#54
oromagi
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@fauxlaw
-->@oromagi
Superb analysis
I'm guessing this a generational split and we are showing our age.   I knew (& I'm guessing you did too) men and women who fought  and sacrificed to stem the violent tides of fascism and Russian expansionism that threatened to overtake the world in the 20th century and who warned our generations not to let down our guards.  Setting limits on dictators and having a no-tolerance policy for violations of national sovereignty is how you keep the bullies from becoming too big to fail.
#55
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@bmdrocks21
I forgot to point out that Russia has kicked out at least 1.7 million people from the three provinces they invaded in 2014- more than half the population and all ethnic non-Russians- Germans, Poles, Turks, Roma, etc.  Seven years later many of the men have illegally immigrated to Europe in search of work but there's still a huge population of women with children and old age pensioners living in tents and depending on UN assistance for food, heat in winter, etc.  I certainly consider that a version of ethnic cleansing already well underway.