Who&#39;s in for some fun challenges?

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.28.2021 11:36PM

3

2

6

06.28.2021 11:36PM

- First of all, anybody I used to know still lurking around here?

- It seems nobody wants to debate me despite my soliciting efforts... I've been away a couple of years, & I've already noticed a huge change of attitudes. Regardless, this is a debate website, so let's get debating. I am Muslim, cultivated in an Islamic Tradition, my primary interest for debate. I realize most here have an aversion towards debating Islam related topics, maybe this post will make it a little bit more compelling. Although I'm interested in debating any Islam related topics (religion, theology, history, law, philosophy...etc), this is an initial list of ideas:

General:

God Is (God, as defined in the Islamic tradition of course)

Islam is true / Muhammed (pbuh) is a true prophet

The Quran is faithfully preserved

The Quran is a true revelation

Islam is a religion of peace

The Hadith tradition is genuine

Christianity vs. Islam:

Tawhid vs. Trinity

Quran vs. Bible preservation

Quran vs. NT preservation

Truth of Quran vs. Bible

Quranic stories vs. Biblical stories

Quranic prophets vs. Biblical prophets

Free Will in Islam vs. Christianity

Salvation in Islam vs. Christianity

Worldview in Islam vs. Christianity

Women's rights in Islam vs. Christianity

Human rights in Islam vs. Christianity

History of Muslims vs. Christians

Science in relation to Islam vs. Christianity

Islamic conquests vs. Christian conquests

Secularism vs. Islam:

Islamic state vs. Secular state

Freedom of religion in Islam vs. Secularism

Islamic education vs. Secular education

Islamic ethics vs. Secular ethics

Islamic history vs. Secular history

Human rights in Islam vs. Secularism

Women's rights in Islam vs. Secularism

Islamic conquests vs. Secular conquests

Hard challenges (for me):

The Quran is better preserved than any other book in history

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the best attested to person in history

Islamic penal law is superior to Secular penal law

History in Islamic tradition is superior to History in the Western tradition

The origin of Common Law is primarily Islamic Law

Eastern Christianity is superior to Western Christianity

The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions

The zionist cause of Israel is culpable

Atheism is unattainable

Darwinian Evolution is more literature than science

Subsaharan Africa adopted civilization before White Europe (non-Mediterranean)

Nicholas Copernicus is a plagerist

Classical Physics is primarily an Islamic invention

The Arab race is the most influential race in history

Democracy is a terrible government system

Erdogan vs. any current European leader

The Islamic world will surpass the Western world by 2050

The Belt & Road project is good

China will surpass the Western world by 2040

The world order will go back to its pre-Western dominion by 2070

China has already surpassed the US

The Chinese communist state is superior to the Western democratic state

- I might think of more to add later... Lemme know if you'd like to chip in, I am open to new topics as well.

#2

Debates: 0

Posts: 766

3

2

6

06.28.2021 11:51PM

3

2

6

06.28.2021 11:51PM

-->

@Yassine

May I ask a question?

One of the items you list is "The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions" and I'm not sure on what basis you can even make that claim. How would you define "religious duty" and "abrahamic religions" and on the basis of what would you make that claim?

Topic's author

#3

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.28.2021 11:56PM

3

2

6

06.28.2021 11:56PM

-->

@rosends

One of the items you list is "The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions" and I'm not sure on what basis you can even make that claim. How would you define "religious duty" and "abrahamic religions" and on the basis of what would you make that claim?

- The 'Hijab' is modest covering, which includes head covering. A religious duty is an act sanctioned by scripture &/or religious authority. The Abrahamic religions are of course, Judaism, Christianity & Islam.

Topic's author

#4

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 12:06AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 12:06AM

-->

@rosends

- You interested in debating the topic? Or any of the other topics?

#5

Debates: 0

Posts: 766

3

2

6

06.29.2021 02:15AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 02:15AM

-->

@Yassine

I'm still trying to understand. One cannot debate if one is speaking at cross purposes because grounds are not common. You wrote, " A religious duty is an act sanctioned by scripture &/or religious authority" but who decides what religious authority is binding? And you also wrote that " The 'Hijab' is modest covering, which includes head covering" - are you saying that there is an obligation for any form of "modest covering" in any Abrahamic religion (who defines what is modest?) or that there is an obligation of a specific type/piece? Is everyone required to include head covering?

I could present the argument that everyone is required to X because the law of ?????? says so, and the law of ?????? is binding on everyone because that law says so. But that isn't really a persuasive argument because someone outside of ?????? would deny a basic premise -- the authority of that system and its laws.

#6

Intelligence_06

Debates: 167

Posts: 3,837

5

8

11

Intelligence_06

06.29.2021 04:22AM

5

8

11

06.29.2021 04:22AM

Are these topics even “fun” at all? Many of them are overused in DDO and here.

#7

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

3

2

06.29.2021 06:14AM

3

2

06.29.2021 06:14AM

-->

@Yassine

Why cannot Islam reform?

#8

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

3

2

06.29.2021 06:16AM

3

2

06.29.2021 06:16AM

-->

@Intelligence_06

Are these topics even “fun” at all?

Maybe because religion is such a serious subject. As someone here once said to me;

" Do you have any conception of how dangerous religion is and in particular Christianity"? History shows otherwise. History shows how dangerous it is". #153

There is nothing "fun" about ideologies that promote indoctrination and or oppression.

This would have made for a decent discussion on its own thread Intelligence_06.

#9

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,223

3

6

zedvictor4

06.29.2021 07:18AM

3

6

06.29.2021 07:18AM

-->

@Yassine

Islam is a religion of peace.

Try telling that to all Muslims.

In all fairness, all the Muslim labelled humans that I know are peaceable, and in predominately Muslim countries, I have always been treated well.

Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible....Look at the climax of the recent U.S. Presidential election for example.

Topic's author

#10

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

-->

@Stephen

Why cannot Islam reform?

- Is this the resolution you're proposing? We can debate: "Islam needs a reformation" or something similar. I'll take Con.

Maybe because religion is such a serious subject. As someone here once said to me;
" Do you have any conception of how dangerous religion is and in particular Christianity"? History shows otherwise. History shows how dangerous it is". #153
There is nothing "fun" about ideologies that promote indoctrination and or oppression.
This would have made for a decent discussion on its own thread Intelligence_06.

- How about the resolution: "Islam is a dangerous religion"? Of course I'll take Con.

Topic's author

#11

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

-->

@rosends

I'm still trying to understand. One cannot debate if one is speaking at cross purposes because grounds are not common.

- You are free to propose your own phrasing of the resolution, or your own topic.

You wrote, " A religious duty is an act sanctioned by scripture &/or religious authority" but who decides what religious authority is binding?

- I'm guessing the commonly accepted religious authority within the faith. For instance, the Halakha or rabbinic authority, for Judaism. Or the Church's fathers & the patriarchs for Christianity. The Mathhabs (legal schools) & the ulama in Islam.

And you also wrote that " The 'Hijab' is modest covering, which includes head covering" - are you saying that there is an obligation for any form of "modest covering" in any Abrahamic religion (who defines what is modest?) or that there is an obligation of a specific type/piece? Is everyone required to include head covering?

- I'm a little confused as to what exactly you're inquiring about, but I'll try. Modest covering is indeed prescribed in all Abrahamic faiths. Modest = chaste & decent clothing, to avoid attracting sexual attention. Not necessarily a specific type, rather it's about not exposing most of the body, including the hair.

I could present the argument that everyone is required to X because the law of ?????? says so, and the law of ?????? is binding on everyone because that law says so. But that isn't really a persuasive argument because someone outside of ?????? would deny a basic premise -- the authority of that system and its laws.

- Evidently, religious prescriptions are relevant to religious adherents. When I say "prescribed in Islam" it obviously does not entail for Christians or non-Muslims, but it is for Muslims. We would have to agree of course on religious authority prior to debating, to avoid any debate of "feelings".

Topic's author

#12

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

-->

@Intelligence_06

Are these topics even “fun” at all?

- What's your idea of "fun" topic to you? You're free to propose your own topic. As long as there is Islam somewhere there, I'll be happy to debate it.

Many of them are overused in DDO and here.

- Besides the "God" one, which else are overused? I've never seen any such debates here, otherwise I would've jumped on them.

- Are you actually Chinese? From China? There are a few 'China' related topics on my list, but I doubt you would take Con in any of them.

Topic's author

#13

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 08:25AM

-->

@zedvictor4

Try telling that to all Muslims.

- You seem to be eager to talk the talk, can you walk the walk? Let's debate the resolution.

In all fairness, all the Muslim labelled humans that I know are peaceable, and in predominately Muslim countries, I have always been treated well.

- & yet, you hold such bigotries. That's cool.

Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible....Look at the climax of the recent U.S. Presidential election for example.

- Why don't you save your arguments for the actual debate. We don't wanna expose too much. Are you up for it?

#14

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

3

2

06.29.2021 09:03AM

3

2

06.29.2021 09:03AM

-->

@zedvictor4

Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible.

Who can ever forget the incitement over a novel in countries where the majority of the population doesn't even speak English never mind read in their own languages?

#15

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

3

2

06.29.2021 09:05AM

3

2

06.29.2021 09:05AM

-->

@Yassine

Why cannot Islam reform?
- Is this the resolution you're proposing?

Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like one of these >> ?

Topic's author

#16

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 09:37AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 09:37AM

-->

@Stephen

Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like one of these >> ?

- Can you not read the OP? It says: "debating topics"... Are you here for debate?

Topic's author

#17

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 09:38AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 09:38AM

-->

@Stephen

Who can ever forget the incitement over a novel in countries where the majority of the population doesn't even speak English never mind read in their own languages?

- That could be one of your arguments in the debate...

#18

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

3

2

06.29.2021 10:03AM

3

2

06.29.2021 10:03AM

-->

@Yassine

Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like one of these >> ?
- Can you not read the OP? It says: "debating topics"...

Yep. Your own title reads : "Who's in for some fun challenges?" .

#19

Debates: 37

Posts: 1,014

4

9

06.29.2021 10:08AM

4

9

06.29.2021 10:08AM

-->

@Yassine

I'll debate you about the existence of god anytime man. I just move slowly so give me a week for arguments and we can make it happen.

Topic's author

#20

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 10:18AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 10:18AM

-->

@Sum1hugme

I'll debate you about the existence of god anytime man.

- Damn! I was hoping it would be something else. Anything else on the list you may be interested in? Or something new?

I just move slowly so give me a week for arguments and we can make it happen.

- Sure. Me too, I don't like deadlines. If this happens, it should be my first debate here, so I'd need to familiarize myself with the platform. Anything I should know in terms of formatting & voting?

Topic's author

#21

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 10:31AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 10:31AM

-->

@Stephen

Yep. Your own title reads : "Who's in for some fun challenges?" .

- Since you have an opinion on the inability of Islam to reform, & since you're here to have some fun challenges, it naturally follows that you're probably here to debate the reformation of Islam, are you not?

#22

Debates: 0

Posts: 766

3

2

6

06.29.2021 11:27AM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 11:27AM

-->

@Yassine

Thanks for the clarification. In your post, you wrote,

Modest covering is indeed prescribed in all Abrahamic faiths. Modest = chaste & decent clothing, to avoid attracting sexual attention. Not necessarily a specific type, rather it's about not exposing most of the body, including the hair.

I can't speak about all Abrahamic faiths, but I can say that in Judaism, some Jews understand that there are rules governing dress including, for some people, some of the time, an obligation to cover the hair. All those "some" statements undermine any more general claim. If that's the case across other religions, then the claim is working backwards -- finding a common rule and then asserting the common thread as a function of membership in the Abrahamic group. That's a safe claim because it is self evident. So it would seem that your topic is more precisely

"In all Abrahamic faiths, there are certain denominations which understand religious authority to have devised rules regarding covering the body and in certain cases, this includes covering hair, for a variety of reasons."

This ends up being a report (substantiated by the various codes of law, easily quotable), not a topic for debate (at least as it relates to Judaism) so I'm still not sure what the topic of the debate would be.

Topic's author

#23

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 12:42PM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 12:42PM

-->

@rosends

Thanks for the clarification. In your post, you wrote,

- What kind of Jew are you? What do you subscribe to?

I can't speak about all Abrahamic faiths, but I can say that in Judaism, some Jews understand that there are rules governing dress including, for some people, some of the time, an obligation to cover the hair. All those "some" statements undermine any more general claim. If that's the case across other religions, then the claim is working backwards --

- "Some Jews"...? You are already on your way to your first round of debate. My claim, as stated, regards the prescription of Hijab, the modest & head covering for ritual & decency purposes, in all three of the Abrahamic faiths. That entails scriptural or authoritative foundation for said prescription. My opponent, henceforth, would argue for the opposite. That is, lack of scriptural & authoritative foundation for Hijab in any of the abrahamic faiths.

finding a common rule and then asserting the common thread as a function of membership in the Abrahamic group. That's a safe claim because it is self evident.

- I have the sneaking feelings that this topic will turn into an argument about authority, & not an argument about Hijab. Since I'm trying to avoid this, we would have to agree on 'authority' first. The Torah, the Talmud & the various commentaries. We can't have "feelings".

So it would seem that your topic is more precisely
"In all Abrahamic faiths, there are certain denominations which understand religious authority to have devised rules regarding covering the body and in certain cases, this includes covering hair, for a variety of reasons."

- The topic is more about the scriptural & authoritative religious foundations, not the practices of various adherents. Otherwise, all religious prescriptions become empty, for we live in a time where feelings became faith itself, & submission to the whim became submission to God. Yeah, I don't want none of that.

This ends up being a report (substantiated by the various codes of law, easily quotable), not a topic for debate (at least as it relates to Judaism) so I'm still not sure what the topic of the debate would be.

- I'm taking the Pro position that indeed it is the case that modest & head covering is prescribed. If you agree with this, then we have nothing to debate. I'm seeking someone who would take the Con position, to refute the claim.

#24

Debates: 0

Posts: 766

3

2

6

06.29.2021 01:06PM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 01:06PM

-->

@Yassine

you wrote, "What kind of Jew are you? What do you subscribe to?"

I am an orthodox Jew

you wrote, ""Some Jews"...? You are already on your way to your first round of debate."

But that isn’t debatable. It is a fact that not all Jews feel bound by what others claim is religious Jewish law.

you wrote, "That is, lack of scriptural & authoritative foundation for Hijab in any of the abrahamic faiths. "

But since not all Jews agree that the “authority” is the authority, some Jews would say that the rule isn’t in the religion.

you wrote, "I have the sneaking feelings that this topic will turn into an argument about authority, & not an argument about Hijab. Since I'm trying to avoid this, we would have to agree on 'authority' first. The Torah, the Talmud & the various commentaries. We can't have "feelings". "

Some Jews see none of these as an authority in the creation of the religion – some see the religion as a human construct inspired by the Torah text but codified by men, and most of those people would say that modest clothing and/or hair covering are not found in the religion. This isn’t about feelings, but about understanding of how religion exists and develops. A reform Jew, who claims that his understanding of Judaism is valid as a religion, would say that there is no mention in his code of any laws or texts of clothing, and any innovation by some other person whom he does not see as an authority is useless.

#25

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

3

2

06.29.2021 01:21PM

3

2

06.29.2021 01:21PM

-->

@Yassine

Since you have an opinion on the inability of Islam to reform

I have asked you why it cannot reform? Are you suggesting that it can?

#26

Debates: 37

Posts: 1,014

4

9

06.29.2021 02:36PM

4

9

06.29.2021 02:36PM

-->

@Yassine

Well to be honest, I don't know much about the specifics of Islam since I was raised as a christian. So, I just threw out there what I'm confident at. But I can go back through your list and see if there's something else there I'd be interested in

Topic's author

#27

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 03:32PM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 03:32PM

-->

@rosends

I am an orthodox Jew

- What do you adhere to in terms of modest dressing in Judaism?

But that isn’t debatable. It is a fact that not all Jews feel bound by what others claim is religious Jewish law.

- Yeah, no "feelings" allowed. We don't see any of them 'feel' not bound by American law, no do we?

But since not all Jews agree that the “authority” is the authority, some Jews would say that the rule isn’t in the religion.

- Without authority, there is no meaning to any law. I believe it's called Judaism not WhateverIwantism. This also applies for Muslims & Christians. Regardless, the topic is about the religious foundation for the practice, not about the feelings adherents hold about the practice.

Some Jews see none of these as an authority in the creation of the religion – some see the religion as a human construct inspired by the Torah text but codified by men, and most of those people would say that modest clothing and/or hair covering are not found in the religion.

- We are not talking about religion anymore here.

This isn’t about feelings, but about understanding of how religion exists and develops.

- Indeed it is about feelings. When the personal whims & feelings become the criterion for religious morality, instead of the divine commandment. If the Enlightenment aimed to put human Reason as the ultimate authority, Post-Modernism denies it & instead put personal feelings as the new criterion. Why is it that for thousands of years Jews have behaved a certain way, & now under secular states they suddenly feel otherwise? The power of the materialist world order today is virtually total, & has succeeded in making religious law virtually cede its authority to secular law.

A reform Jew, who claims that his understanding of Judaism is valid as a religion, would say that there is no mention in his code of any laws or texts of clothing, and any innovation by some other person whom he does not see as an authority is useless.

- Exactly, self-claims = feelings. Indeed, the modernist Muslim or Christian or Jew does have a authority, except it isn't the religious authority, rather it is the secular one. Without a sense of religious authority any argument about religious law becomes meaningless. Yeah, this is already turning into an argument about authority.

Topic's author

#28

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6

06.29.2021 03:35PM

3

2

6

06.29.2021 03:35PM

-->

@Sum1hugme

Well to be honest, I don't know much about the specifics of Islam since I was raised as a christian. So, I just threw out there what I'm confident at. But I can go back through your list and see if there's something else there I'd be interested in

- You could propose your own topic you wish to argue. Or we can still do the "God is" debate.

Topic's author

#29

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

3

2

6