Governor Desantis of florida signs bill to teach students "communism is evil"

Author: drlebronski

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https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/education/2021-06-23/desantis-signs-education-bills-says-students-will-be-taught-communism-is-evil essentially children will be taught capitalist propoganda (not all) republicans support this bill but laugh at the idea of teaching that gay people exist (not all). He says common anti communist talking points like cuba and vietnam yet fails to mention how cuba has suffered under US sanctions for almost 60 years. The UN has denounced by the sanctions  as illegal and inhumane and every member state with the exception of the us and israel votes against the oppressive measures that have cost the economy billions of dollars. Despite all this Cuba has a better life expectancy than the US and had a better covid response.

Desantis makes it sound like theres some big immigration from vietnam to the US that's not the case at all. The vietnamese show overwhelming support for their government out of 45 polled nations vietnam showed the highest rates of satisfaction with their governments response to covid.
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@drlebronski
I see no quote in the article of Governor Desantis, saying "communism is evil"

I'm sure all the people executed in the Cuban Revolution were appreciative of their new Communist government. (Sarcasm)

"Unlike most of the foreign-born from Asia, those from Vietnam came to the United States mainly as refugees and asylum seekers from the mid-1970s onward. Today, the U.S. is home to about 1.1 million Vietnamese immigrants, making them the fifth-largest immigrant group."

We live in a Capitalist society, it is reasonable that American students are taught of what type of society they live in.
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@Lemming

We live in a Capitalist society, it is reasonable that American students are taught of what type of society they live in.
I agree that they should only be taught what it is. just like i agree they should be taught what communism is not whether its good or bad. 

"Unlike most of the foreign-born from Asia, those from Vietnam came to the United States mainly as refugees and asylum seekers from the mid-1970s onward. Today, the U.S. is home to about 1.1 million Vietnamese immigrants, making them the fifth-largest immigrant group."
That doesn't mean right now there is a ton of  vietnamese immigrating. Also there are lots immigrants probably because of vietnam war where the us did war crime after war crime. https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/1802 but i could be wrong
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@drlebronski
Should they be taught whether Hitler is good or bad?
Just so I understand your gist.

"Some Americans who pushed towards the bus tried to pull their Vietnamese wives and children along with them," reported Bradley. "There were desperate scenes of families separated and crying out for help, pleading not to be left behind, clutching at the last straw of hope."

We don't see many North Korean immigrants either, but of course that's because North Korea is a wonderful place, leader with the highest amount of support, than any other nation, I hear.

More unbiased view,
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@Lemming
Should they be taught whether Hitler is good or bad?
Just so I understand your gist.
Duh he murdered 17 million people. hitler was a person. communism is a political ideology.

We don't see many North Korean immigrants either, but of course that's because North Korea is a wonderful place, leader with the highest amount of support, than any other nation, I hear.
Are you suggesting vietnamese people are fed propaganda? If so please provide evidence. that was pretty funny regardless.
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@drlebronski
What's the difference between an individual/Their actions, and an ideology?
When we speak of something being 'good or 'bad.

'Everyone is fed propaganda, brainwashed.
It's just a stupid way of 'putting it, in my opinion, better reserved for the most extreme examples.

However, Vietnam's successes came at the cost of increasing violations of rights: restrictions on freedom of speech; failure to protect the right of privacy; and ...
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@drlebronski
So says the media report. Yes, the article itself says DeSantis said communism is evil [I happen to agree, by the way], but it manages to just say it; it does not quote him saying it. Why not? WUSF certainly attended DeSantis talking about FL education, and they must have heard something worthy of actual quotation. Did they interpret his words correctly?

Further, has anyone [you, for example] actually read the two bills noted as being signed by DeSantis three weeks ago, SB 1028 and SB 1108, alleging some capitalist agenda? Funny thing, Communism is not mentioned in either bill, evil, or not. As it happens, neither is capitalism. So, who, exactly is pushing propaganda? WUSF, perhaps? And you, by bringing it up here? Your recent debate was void of any citation as well. It's a good practice. Do your learning from better sources.
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@drlebronski
I'll admit though, that I know next to nothing about modern day Vietnam, and current immigration rates from that country to this country.
North Korea example is a 'monstrously unfair comparison, I'm sure. (Not sarcasm)
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@fauxlaw
quote from desantis himself "the bill also expands our previous efforts in civics to add a requirement for the high school government class that students receive instructions on the evils of communism and totalitarian ideologies". Fox News even reported on it.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R2No986300 he states that at 3:10.
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@drlebronski
Sorry about length.

"The bill also expands our previous efforts in Civics, to add a requirement for the High School Government Class, that students receive instruction on the evils of Communism and Totalitarian Ideologies.
We have a number of people, in Florida, particularly Southern Florida, who've escaped Totalitarian Regimes, who've escaped Communist Dictatorships, to be able to come to America.
We want all students to understand the difference. Why would someone flee across shark infested waters, say leaving from Cuba, to come to Southern Florida?
Why would somebody leave a place like Vietnam? Why would people leave these countries and risk their life to be able to come here?
It's important that students understand that. Now as part of this bill, Florida will create a portrait and patriotism library, so students can learn about real patriots who came to this country, after seeing the horrors of these Communist Regimes."
- Ron DeSantis

Well, I'll admit now that he 'said it.
But I can't say I'm 'greatly 'bothered, by him saying it.
"Repression and New Economic Zones After the Vietnam War — The reunification of Vietnam was accompanied by widespread political repression."

Have you never heard of the Vietnamese boat people - Wikipedia?

Boat People Flee Vietnam
 "After the fall of Saigon in 1975, more than a million people left Vietnam, about 5 percent of South Vietnam’s population, most of them by boat. Many were Chinese Vietnamese. Some didn’t make it to their final destinations. Some died. Most settled in the United States, which accepted political refugees but turned back economic refugees. Many of those who didn't make it were detained at camps in Hong Kong or the Philippines.
 For this privilege of leaving Vietnam Chinese had to pay the Vietnamese government about US$2,000 a head in gold. At the time these fees were Vietnam's main source of hard currency. At that time the Chinese owned many businesses in Vietnam and there was a lot of hostility towards Chinese in Vietnam. China and Vietnam have long history of animosity. Many Chinese were thrown out of Vietnam at the time China and Vietnam fought a border war in 1979. In the early 1970s there were about a half million ethnic Chinese in Vietnam. In the early 1980s there were practically none. Vietnam made US$2 billion from the forced migration. [Source: William Ellis, National Geographic, November 1979]
 Many of refugees crowded onto unseaworthy boats. Large ships with over 2,500 passengers were organized by Vietnamese racketeers. Smaller ships were purchased by people who pooled their money. Life savings were paid for a place on a boat. Families split up. Fat people were sometimes denied a spot because they took up as much room as two smaller people that paid as much.
 People died of thirst, hunger, exposure. Some people who got very sick were pushed over the edge. Some boats had engines that conked out at sea. Some of the boats lost more than half their passengers to exposure, drowning, starvation and attacks from pirates.
 About 90 percent of the boats didn't make it. Those who made it to Hong Kong, Thailand or Malaysia were often turned back, driven from shore or towed back to sea. In Hong Kong authorities tried to prevent the ships from landing. One ship was moored in Hong Kong harbor for 20 weeks until someone cut the anchor. When the boat drifted into shore hundreds of people jumped overboard and fled to the hills where they were later rounded up and placed in a camp."

“The price? I couldn’t begin to give you the numbers,” says Carlos Ponce, the director of the Latin American and Caribbean division of the human-rights group Freedom House. “I can tell you that 2 million Cubans live outside Cuba, I can tell you that in the last 10 years, there have been nearly 18,000 political detainees.
“How many in jail since 1959? How many executed? How many lost at sea? I can’t even guess.”
There are organizations that try to track those numbers. But extracting information from a secretive totalitarian regime that likely doesn’t even know the answers itself is a nearly impossible task and likely to remain so, even if there are significant changes in the way the the Cuban government does business following Fidel Castro’s death last month.
“Even after the Soviet Union fell, when some of its archives opened up for a time, all we really learned was the extent of the cover-up, all the measures the Soviets took to cover up their crimes,” says Marion Smith, executive director of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which studies the human-rights histories of communist regimes.
“But we never got a precise number of victims, or their names. The Soviets didn’t want to keep precise records — they had learned their lesson from the Nazis, who did keep precise records, which were used to indict Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg.”

"Thousands of Cubans have died in front of Castro’s infamous ‘paredón’ (the wall). There was no discrimination, as far as sending people to the firing squad was concerned. Young and old, black and white, rich and poor were sent to ‘el paredón’.
Many of those who helped Castro gain power, like Comandantes Ernesto Sori Marin and William Morgan, an American, were among the thousands who were shot."

. . .

From Ron DeSantis point of view,  he 'is endorsing teaching the objective facts, it just 'follows, that the objective facts lead to the 'conclusion of the repression, death, lack of freedom, in Dictatorships.
'Before 3:10, he mentions how many students are 'unfamiliar with what civic rights they have, responsibilities in society. States the need for certain key principles and facts to be taught.
I see nothing wrong.
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@drlebronski
I'm not arguing that DeSantis did not say it. I'm arguing that your cited article did not quote him, but, instead, merely talked about it, and suggested that the legislation he signed also says it. As I pointed out, the two bills do nit even mention communism, or capitalism, either. Details matter in journalism, else it is merely opinion.
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@fauxlaw
House Bill 5: Civic Education Curriculum: which must include a comparative
discussion of political ideologies, such as communism and 
totalitarianism, that conflict with the principles of freedom 
and democracy essential to the founding principles of the United 
States
         Section 1 lines 26 through 30
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@drlebronski
I 'do like that you referenced it.

But again ask,
What's the difference between an individual/Their actions, and an ideology?
When we speak of something being 'good or 'bad.

If you would teach children that Hitler was bad,
Why 'not

"House Bill 5: Civic Education Curriculum: which must include a comparative
discussion of political ideologies, such as communism and 
totalitarianism, that conflict with the principles of freedom 
and democracy essential to the founding principles of the United 
States" 
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I'm old enough to remember when Reagan would argue that Feds and States should butt out of education and let local school boards, teachers, and parents determine how best to teach students.  I didn't agree with Reagan then and don't now but can't help but note how this old Republican principle, like all other Republican principles, has been cast aside for just another demagogue.
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@oromagi
Honestly with technology being the way it is, seems it 'ought be easier than ever for parents to homeschool, and have their kids interact with other kids of similar values.
Than 'have to settle for public school, and 'other people's values.

(Edit)
Video included, partly as joke.
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@drlebronski
What's your point? HB5 doesn't specify "evil" either, but does indicate a requirement to teach communism and totalitarianism:

“A student must earn one credit in United States History; one credit in World History; one-half credit in economics; and one-half credit in United States Government, which must include a comparative discussion of political ideologies, such as communism and totalitarianism, that conflict with the principles of freedom and democracy essential to the founding principles of the United States.” 

Just because something is evil doesn't mean it should be stricken from instruction. Good to know about the enemy, yeah? Sun Tsu's Art of War was in my high school curriculum. As was Marx's Communist Manifesto and Chairman Mao's Little Red Book. People then were not afraid of stuff. Not like today. Today, we coddle our children. I had to tach my children this stuff, myself, and I did. I wanted them to know the face of the enemy.
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@Lemming
Just because you agree with a political view does not mean that it should be taught to kids. Preventing schools from indoctrinating children and allowing them to come to their own conclusions is a much more important consideration for an issue like this than the question of whether communism is evil or not.
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@Username
I think kids should be told, not to steal from and punch one another repeatedly, is this not indoctrination?
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@Lemming
That's completely different from telling kids that this ideology is bad you should be this one. indoctrination definition- the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. though i dont fully agree with communist principles i dont think it should be taught thats its evil and terrible. What would you do if instead the bill was about teaching the evils of capitalism?
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@drlebronski
Not stealing, not hurting others, 'is 
"A system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy."
They are policy and law, by which we live in this society.
Christian Ideology for example, 10 Commandments.

 "indoctrination definition- the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically." - drlebronski

From what I remember of school, there were questions in the back of each chapter, that asked you questions about 'why this or that is,
I remember as a student being able to ask my teacher questions if I wanted.

If the parents and community lived by Communistic system and values, it'd make sense for them to hold said beliefs, for their kids to inherit those beliefs.
But we live in America.
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@Lemming
No, but make a distinction between principles which are embedded into the laws and culture of most societies in some form and are agreed upon by a huge majority of people who think about things like this and principles where there are controversies and room for a diversity of opinions.
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@Username
That's a bit too 'compact for my understanding, can you repeat it differently?
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@Lemming
I'll reword with some elaboration.

Principles that are 

- embedded into the most basic laws and cultural aspects of most nations

- agreed upon by such a large majority of people that following them is an uncontroversial and vital aspect of day-to-day life 

can be taught in schools. 

Principles that are:

- controversial 

- considered valid only by some, contested by many others 

- reject other principles which do not clearly and obviously call for negative attitudes or actions towards people based on clearly uncontrollable aspects of their person

should not be taught in school.
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@Lemming
There are probably other criteria as well but these are just some that I can think of off of the top of my head.
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I'm old enough to remember when Reagan would argue that Feds and States should butt out of education and let local school boards, teachers, and parents determine how best to teach students.  I didn't agree with Reagan then and don't now but can't help but note how this old Republican principle, like all other Republican principles, has been cast aside for just another demagogue.

NO ARRESTS MADE AFTER PROTESTORS BLOCK TRAFFIC on I-75 amid CUBAN PROTESTS
by Chris Redfearn
  12:53 PM EDT, Thu July 15, 2021
 
FORT MYERS, Fla. – Dozens of people supporting anti-government protests in Cuba took control of Interstate 75 in Southwest Florida Tuesday night. Florida Highway Patrol had to divert traffic off of the interstate for nearly an hour, but no one was arrested or cited despite Governor Desantis’ new “anti-riot” law.
The law states that if people “willfully obstruct the free, convenient, and normal use of a public street, highway or road” they can be cited for a traffic violation or arrested.

“Just think about it…you’re driving home from work and all of a sudden you have people out there shutting down a highway,” said Desantis in a Tuesday afternoon speech. “We worked hard to make sure that didn’t happen in Florida. If they start to do that there needs to be swift penalties and that’s something that just cannot happen.”

Just minutes later that did happen. Protesters in Miami shut down a freeway there for hours Tuesday evening before the same thing happened near Fort Myers.

Governor Desantis has been an advocate for the anti-government protesters in Cuba since they began. Voting records indicate that many Cuban Americans in Florida did indeed vote for him which is leading some to question whether law enforcement and lawmakers may be going soft on the recent demonstrations for political reasons.
Republicans stopped being for the principled application of law and order some time ago.  In the age of Trump, laws are for non-Republicans.
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@Username
Principles that are:

- controversial 

- considered valid only by some, contested by many others 

- reject other principles which do not clearly and obviously call for negative attitudes or actions towards people based on clearly uncontrollable aspects of their person

should not be taught in school.

I see.

100 days later

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@fauxlaw
What's your point? HB5 doesn't specify "evil" either, but does indicate a requirement to teach communism and totalitarianism:

“A student must earn one credit in United States History; one credit in World History; one-half credit in economics; and one-half credit in United States Government, which must include a comparative discussion of political ideologies, such as communism and totalitarianism, that conflict with the principles of freedom and democracy essential to the founding principles of the United States.” 

thats essentially the same thing as saying its evil bro.

Just because something is evil doesn't mean it should be stricken from instruction. Good to know about the enemy, yeah? Sun Tsu's Art of War was in my high school curriculum. As was Marx's Communist Manifesto and Chairman Mao's Little Red Book. People then were not afraid of stuff. Not like today. Today, we coddle our children. I had to tach my children this stuff, myself, and I did. I wanted them to know the face of the enemy.

that is entirely subjective.
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@Lemming
there are always costs in revolutions (many deaths in american revolution aswell No complaints though)

Thats not to say i dont think castro is evil
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@BigPimpDaddy
Personally, I don't think I would have supported the American Revolution, at the time.
Had I been around, back then.
. . .
Well, at the least, I would not have advocated for a separation from England, I think.
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Governor Desantis of florida signs bill to teach students "communism is evil"  But teaching CRT is OK, No double Standard here.