Abortion

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog
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So, I've been doing some thinking and research.

My original justification for being pro choice was that if every single unwanted pregnency got aborted, the foster system would run out of kids to take care of so they would have to rescue kids from elsewhere to keep their business alive.

Leading Causes Of Death In Africa - WorldAtlas states that only around 284K Africans die of starvation a year and worldwide this number probably isn't much higher as Africa is the only continent in the world where extreme poverty is significant (134-eb9a-51e7.jpg (1600×990) (howmuch.net)).  This is a far cry from the 9 million people I previously thought died and I think the majority of these starvation deaths are from adults who should be independent.  Trading with Africa would help reduce the death count by starvation due to more trade.

There is the claim that an unborn baby isn't a human being and to an extent this is correct.  I wouldn't be arguing that a zygote or an embryo is a human being and I would claim that pro life people, especially pro life females (if they believe a zygote is a human being) aren't consistent with this belief unless they are going out of their way to save zygotes from experimentation by volunteering to be impregnanted with zygotes.  The only people that agree to be impregnanted by artificial insemination are people who have an infertile partner and have no choice if they want to be a Mom.  If a pro life female wanted to be principled with their pro life belief, they could never have sex with their partner and get all their babies via artificial insemination and they could due this as much as they could to save as many zygotes as possible from experimentation if they believe a zygote is a human being.  But you don't see people doing this and a zygote cell resembles cancer which also contains the DNA of a human being, so calling a zygote or embryo a human being seems kind of silly.  Pro lifers will claim that a zygote is the start of a human being, but it doesn't matter what something could be; it merely matters what something already is.  Just as you don't treat somebody like a criminal until they actually become a criminal, you don't treat someone like a human being until they are actually a human being.

However, a fetus is a different story.  A fetus not only has the DNA to become a human, but their cells are specialized unlike that of a cancer cell.  Calling a 6 week old fetus cancer I would argue is dehumanizing since I fail to see how they aren't human.  They have the DNA, their cells are specialized, so they are human.

However, there are other organisms that are obviously humans that you don't have to take care of.  I don't have to adopt a kid even though a kid is a human being.  However, I think one difference here that I think is relevant is that I never created the kid, so initially the kid isn't under my responsibility.  The only way I can get rid of my responsibility to a kid is if I transfer it to a consenting person.  A new mother can easily transfer responsibility of the kid to a foster agency and they will take the kid.  But this comes to the question, should you be responsible to take care of a kid without your consent?  To this, I would look for an analogy; deadbeat dads.  Everybody that I know believes that a deadbeat dad should take care of his responsibilities to a kid that he creates.  If a male is forced to take care of kids because he created them unless he agrees with his wife to set the kids up for adoption (and even pro choicers agree with this), then we have to apply the same standard to a female.  Yes; a female endures stress and pain from pregnency, but a male also has to sacrifice so much stress and finances from pregnency as well.  If pregnency was easy, you would see millionaires having like 12 kids, but males and females both take a toll from pregnency.  The female endures pain, the male has to make economic sacrifices since he has to provide for a wife since she often will take time off.  He also has to endure a stressed out wife for 9 months.  I believe the female sacrifices more from pregnency, but both genders sacrifice a lot for a kid.

There are the exception cases (primarily rape, maternal life, and fetal defects).  I think almost everyone can get behind abortion if the mother needs her life saved; I don't see how someone can be fine with sacrificing a mother's life to save an unborn baby.  Rape is tough.  There is a 31% chance that the mother will develop PTSD from rape.  The ideologue pro lifers will argue that a fetus concieved from rape still shouldn't be aborted, but all they focus on is the fetus; never the female who pro lifers expect to sacrifice whatever it takes to save a fetus through sexual activity that was not her fault.  Making her be pregnant from something she did not consensually take the risk for would be a lot like forcing the pregnant female to sacrifice whatever it takes to save even one life in Africa.  The creation of a rape concieved fetus and the existence of a life in Africa was not something that isn't the fault of the female, yet pro lifers expect her to do whatever it takes to save the fetus and not the kid in Africa?  I'm not saying you should be forced to give to people in Africa, but because of that belief, I can't get behind banning abortions in cases of rape.  As for fetal defects, I don't think someone should be killed for being defected.  This is akin to killing all retarted people.

To what extent should abortion be allowed?  A zygote or embryo isn't a human being, but a fetus is and you become a fetus at about 6 weeks into pregnency.  There are times such as saving maternal life that abortion is acceptable.  I can't get behind banning abortions with rape.  Here are the conditions for which I would be fine with legalized abortion:

- Unrestricted until 6 weeks
- Allowed in situations of rape until 20 weeks
- Allowed to save maternal life until birth.

Any abortions outside of these parameters should be punished with around 50 hours of community service.

Thoughts?
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@TheUnderdog
 Here are the conditions for which I would be fine with legalized abortion:

- Unrestricted until 6 weeks
Why is this the case. 
TheUnderdog
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@Bones
A fetus's cells specialize at 6 weeks into pregnency.  At that point, it's no longer unspecialized cell matter.
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@TheUnderdog
Would you give any rights to them before 6 weeks? If not, then there is a scenario in which I brought up in a different thread that I would like your view on.

"So if we justify killing an unborn in the first trimester, can we take a stance against drugging one? Because it is the development in the first trimester that has the greatest impact on the viability of the unborn.

If we give no rights to the unborn in the 1st trimester in order to allow abortion, then does that mean that there is no moral issue with a woman purposefully taking hard drugs (or even starting to, so addiction cannot be used as an argument) in the first trimester as it only harms a 'potential human'? If they stop once it becomes an 'actual human' then it could be argued that the state they are in at that point is their natural state and thus any medical defects or abnormalities are just natural to said child and if they die (even after birth) that no one can be held even morally responsible?"

If you do give some level of rights before 6 weeks, then why not right to life?
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@TheMorningsStar
If a female takes any drugs that kill a zygote, similar to if a female took drugs that killed cancer (the genetic makeup of a zygote and a cancer cell is both unspecialized cell matter) then I would have no objection.  I'm pretty libetarian on drugs, so I am fine with her using drugs and I don't consider a zygote to be a human being.  I don't think a female would use a drug to kill a zygote unless they got a drug for the purpose of an abortion.  I don't think a pregnant women drinking beer will cause fetal problems in the future if currently pregnant with a zygote unless the zygote gets killed in the process.  I think alcohol for a zygote is either a death sentence or nothing, and I'm leaning more towards a death sentence due to what alcohol generally does to pregnencies.

I don't think zygotes should be given more rights than a cancer cell since that is all they are at that point during pregnency.
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@TheUnderdog
Food for thought:

Teratomas have specialized cells but can never be a human being. 

There are fetal defects incompatible with life.

Men sometimes push women to get abortions - who should do community service?





TheUnderdog
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@SkepticalOne
Teratomas have specialized cells but can never be a human being. 
True, but they don't have a brain so they aren't human.  I think brain cells start to develop in fetuses within 6 weeks based on the research I did a long time ago (it might be wrong).

There are fetal defects incompatible with life.
There would be exceptions if the defect is incompatible with life.  I don't think this is all cases of abortion.  If the kid is autistic, the kid can live.  If the kid is going to not have 2 arms, that also shouldn't be a death sentence.  But there may be times where a fetal defect results in death.

Men sometimes push women to get abortions - who should do community service?
Both of them; if you tell someone to commit a murder, you and the person who did it get tried for murder.  Therefore both parties would be tried for the crime of abortion if not performed when legally allowed with the community service.  I'd like it if it was feasible to punish it more, but it's too common for that.  Abortion is going to have to be significantly more rare to get that done though.  Free contraception can get that done though.
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@TheUnderdog
50 hours.......Sounds like a good deal.


Seriously though, I fully agree, 6 weeks is a good cut of point....Most women are aware of their pregnancy by this stage.


Morning after pills seem like the sensible solution to unprotected sex.  Though I am sure that there are downsides to an unrestricted implementation of this option. 
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@TheUnderdog
Teratomas have specialized cells but can never be a human being. 
True, but they don't have a brain so they aren't human.  I think brain cells start to develop in fetuses within 6 weeks based on the research I did a long time ago (it might be wrong).
Teratomas can have brain cells. If having brain cells is your line, then teratomas can be human beings too.

I think it is much easier when we accept brain cells don't equate to brains. I personally think it is important for, at least, the structure to be there.

There would be exceptions if the defect is incompatible with life.
Good. I would go further, but to each his own.


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@TheUnderdog
The abortion argument need not hinge on when a fetus becomes a human. If they are humans from the moment of conception it still doesn't matter. No human has the right to use the body of another without their consent. It is therefore true that no fetus, even if it is a full human and deserving of human rights has the right to live inside me if I do not want that.

11 days later

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@SkepticalOne
If having brain cells is your line, then teratomas can be human beings too.
Teratomas don't have the DNA to be a human.  You need both the DNA and specialized cells to be human.
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@secularmerlin
No human has the right to use the body of another without their consent.
A 2 year old kid is using the body of the mother without her consent if she is parenting the kid.  If adoption was not an option (as it isn't for fetuses), would the woman be forced to take care of the kid she created from her sluttish sex life?  If she didn't want the kid, she shouldn't have had sex and the guy shouldn't have pressured her to have sex.  This also applies to pro lifers who often have sex before marriage.
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@TheUnderdog
If having brain cells is your line, then teratomas can be human beings too.
Teratomas don't have the DNA to be a human.  You need both the DNA and specialized cells to be human.

Teratomas have human DNA and specialized cells...
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@SkepticalOne
Human DNA has very little in common with Teratomas.
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@TheUnderdog
Human DNA has very little in common with Teratomas.
Yah,  no joke.

I'm not comparing teratomas to human DNA - I'm saying they have human DNA and specialized cells exactly like a fetus. If this is your standard for personhood, then teratomas are people. Are you good with that?
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@SkepticalOne
I'm saying they have human DNA and specialized cells exactly like a fetus.
Teratomas don't have human DNA.
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God's design doesn't have any problem with killing fetuses. Miscarriage is the spontaneous loss of a pregnancy before the 20th week. About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage.
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@TheUnderdog
What kind of DNA do you think teratomas have?
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@SkepticalOne
My bad; I thought teratomas were a type of animal for a second.

But teratomas don't have brain cells so if someone wanted to get a teratoma removed, it would be like getting a haircut.
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@TheUnderdog
Actually they do.  A tumour containing a miniature brain has been found growing on the ovary of a 16-year-old girl in Japan.
The 10-centimetre-wide tumour was discovered when the girl had surgery to remove her appendix. When doctors cut the tumour out, they found clumps of greasy, matted hair inside, and a 3-centimetre-wide brain-like structure covered by a thin plate of skull bone.
Closer analysis revealed that it was a smaller version of a cerebellum – which usually sits underneath the brain’s two hemispheres. A mass on one side resembled a brain stem – the structure that normally joins to the spinal cord.


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@TheUnderdog
Any abortions outside of these parameters should be punished with around 50 hours of community service.

Thoughts?
Does the person whose body is at the center of this debate get a say?
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@TheUnderdog
My bad; I thought teratomas were a type of animal for a second.
Glad we were able to clear the confusion.

But teratomas don't have brain cells so if someone wanted to get a teratoma removed, it would be like getting a haircut.
Teratomas can have brain cells.

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@SkepticalOne
Teratomas can have brain cells.
I think those brain cells are dead when they are displayed on a human.  If you have dead cells, you can get them removed if you want.
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@Double_R
Does the person whose body is at the center of this debate get a say?
They shouldn't have had sex and they have had plenty of time (6 weeks) to abort if they didn't want the pregnency.  Even a woman who gets raped has 6 weeks to abort before it becomes illegal.  I don't know why a female would want to wait to abort if (in the event their pregnency was unplanned) could abort before the 6 week cutoff.
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@TheUnderdog
I think those brain cells are dead when they are displayed on a human.  
Any brains cells within a teratoma can be very much alive.

I assure you a teratoma meets your standard of personhood: human DNA and specialized cells (including brain cells). I encourage you to re-think this standard.
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@TheUnderdog
A fetus's cells specialize at 6 weeks into pregnency.  At that point, it's no longer unspecialized cell matter.
But, the human genome is understood well enough to determine from DNA what those cellular specializations will be, so what is so magic about 6 weeks? This stuff can be determined from conception, so there is no excuse for a delay in prevention from that point, even if specialization ought to be a factor.
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@949havoc
At conception, a zygote's cells resemble a cancer cell.  At 6 weeks, the unborn' s cells are specialized enough to not be cancer anymore and females have had enough time to get an abortion if they wanted too.
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@SkepticalOne
Any brains cells within a teratoma can be very much alive.
How?  Wouldn't the cells have died outside the human body (maybe like not getting enough oxygen)?
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@TheUnderdog
Any brains cells within a teratoma can be very much alive.
How?  Wouldn't the cells have died outside the human body (maybe like not getting enough oxygen)?

Teratomas exist within the human body.

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@TheUnderdog
They shouldn't have had sex
I am always amused when this comment comes from a man, first off. But more importantly, in your view, sex is a punishable act. Ok bro.

they have had plenty of time (6 weeks) to abort if they didn't want the pregnency
For most women there are no biological indicators of pregnancy till about 5 weeks.