murder rate only higher in the usa when you look at gun murder rate = murder more likely with guns

Author: linate ,

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  • linate
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    linate
    You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix...
    'As for Friedman’s claim that keeping a gun out of someone’s hands won’t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, “The evidence doesn’t support that. Look at the numbers.” She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: “If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it’s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher,” Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.
    That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. “As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It’s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period.”


    bottom line that this and loads of scientific evidence points to: murder is more likely if there is a gun involved. 

    i think i did this debate before and saw only crackpot replies. i'll hold ya'll's feet to the fire this time.
    i know sometimes evidence can be open to interpretation but i just don't see a good alternative theory here. maybe i'm missing something. 
  • Plisken
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    The murder rate has been generally higher in the US for a long time, predating illiberal gun control.  Not sure exactly how to compare it correctly to the pansy nations, like britain, Canada, Australia etc... The US is big enough that there isn't really a shortage for sample size anyway.  Obviously there are cultures within the US that contain terrible outlook on this stuff in unusual amount, generally not so bad as our southern counterparts though.  Some parts of the US are safer than say, Canada, and some are more in line with a "developing" country.
  • Plisken
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    There's a problem that I have had too, in trying to consider the causations within correlation and that is that if we study for example, a gun law, and the statistical effect surrounding it, we'll it doesn't happen in a vacuum. Maybe it's in a setting where politicians are utilizing an irrational scapegoat which is regionally unpopular while actual problems recycle, or maybe it's accompanied by people who get fed up with crime and decide to kick it's ass all around.  Really as it pertains to crime the policy just has to make sense with a state's approach to law enforcement and the culture of residents.
  • Alec
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    A better way to see how gun control has played a part in increasing/decreasing the homicide rate is to compare a place before it enacted a gun control policy and after it did.  This helps eliminate other factor's influence in the homicide result.

    For example, it 1976, Chicago banned guns and their homicide rate increased.  Since then, they have decided to legalize guns in the city.  This led to a decrease in homicide.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Plisken
    I've posted so much on this topic on 2 other sites that I just can't go there yet again.  It's all been said before, there's nothing new I'm not sure why he keeps bringing up these old, tired ideas.  If anything resurrect the old threads or provide the links from ddo and the island so we don't have to relook up the same old stuff.  Guns is one thing I like arguing about, but until there's something knew I don't wish to beat that dead horse any more.  That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't examine the multitude of facts and arguments that have already been made, but I can't imagine too many are interested in re-inventing the wheel.
  • Plisken
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    Maybe democrats could put people to work making little government gun safes to hand out and promote responsibility.  No lock, no glock!
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Plisken
    prisoners use to make licence plates lol  that would be pretty funny, gun safes are hella expensive.

22 days later

  • linate
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts

    you ignored and deflected last time we had a debate on this, as did all the other gun nuts...

    if there was a decent counter to the science i posted in this thread, someone would be quick to state it, even restate it. as it sits, they all deflect instead. 



  • Greyparrot
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    --> @linate
    How likely do you think gun confiscation will happen without a repeal of the 2nd amendment?
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @linate
    Most of the replies speak for themselves, and adequately address your attempted argumens.
      How do the stats look if you take out all the criminas and gang members that kill each other in places like chicagC?  TBH if bag guys kill each other, i don't much care.
  • Mharman
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    --> @linate
    I've looked at so many statistics about this. Here the truth:

    With guns present...

    gun crime rate is increased

    but overall crime rate is reduced.

    In other words, criminals will have easier access to guns, but the public will also have them for defensive use.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Mharman
    With guns present...

    gun crime rate is increased

    let me ask you to consider this

    is it that guns being present = increase in gun crime rates  or
    criminals are more violent more willing to murder, have no respect for life etc than let's say (insert country here) and use a gun as the best tool for what they want to do.

    because if no one wanted to murder then the number and kind of guns is totally irrelevant, true?

    if we look at some of the shootings, even using full autos in Europe, it proves if someone really wants to do something like that, they can and will, they already have laws against that, yet still happened anyway.

    Upon examining the words of the very crafters to the Australia gun ban, they themselves even admit they can't say it did anything to affect their already declining murder rates.  We don't even have to look at the statistical studies that plainly point out no definitive evidence indicating the ban had any affect.

    So why did and do murder rates decline?  Because people decide to stop killing each other.

    In the U.S. with no new laws and skyrocketing gun sales (the Obama years for example) the murder rates still declined, doesn't seem logical if guns are the problem does it?


  • linate
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    here is a graph that shows non gun homicides compared to gun homicides, in all the developed countries we usually compare to. 

    the thing is, you might be able to argue causation v correlation with something like gun precense, but not here: that is, people who are more violent might get guns and cause the correlation to go up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that people getting guns causes murder to go up. but, in this situation, we see that non gun murders are roughly the same as every other country, which means people aren't just evil and wildly killing people. only when you look at gun homicides do you see wildly high murder rates. i understand the gun is the weapon of choice if you are going to kill someone so that could throw of the gun homicide part, the problem is that the non-gun homicide part isn't wildly out of whack.

    again, this isn't just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem. 
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    that makes no sense
    again, this isn't just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem. 
    how is a gun a owned by a non criminal a problem? and then you said

    but that doesn't necessarily mean that people getting guns causes murder to go up.
    if people getting guns doesn't mean it increases the murder rates, how is it a gun problem?

    though by your above statement you seem to accept that even though gun purchases went up, and even reached all time highs, the murder rate has been the lowest in recent history and trends downwards, sure seems like guns are NOT the problem.

    so explain to me this gun problem that the ownership and sales have skyrocketed hit all time highs by a large amount and yet the murder rate goes down, circle that square if you please.






  • Greyparrot
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    The USA has higher rates of violence mainly because of the welfare ghettos spawning gang violence. Most of the civilized nations require people to work for food. They are also mostly homogenous with no protected welfare classes.
  • Plisken
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    In my family, the responsibility, ethic, respect, value of life, all that stuff that goes with a rifle is handed down by male role models.  
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Those things are all true,  but ignored as a problem.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Plisken
    True. The welfare ghettos of America have a 24% father participation rate. No checks on the violent youth.
  • disgusted
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    The facts are that murders in Australia fell by 75% with the introduction of gun laws and gun buy back law.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Greyparrot
    You don't know about anything outside your border. Yanks don't get educated.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Greyparrot
    The USA has higher rates of violence mainly because
    They are, as a general rule, ignorant know nothings who have a constitutional right to murder schoolchildren.

  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @disgusted
    Go research what their very own law makers said about the ban and go argue with them and tell them they are wrong and you know more about it than they do,  good luck. 
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @disgusted
    The facts are that murders in Australia fell by 75% with the introduction of gun laws and gun buy back law.
    While home invasions rose dramatically. What's your point? That Australians are pussies?

  • disgusted
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Citation? Or just lies?
  • disgusted
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    Supply citations or be a liar.