the true religion

Author: Lunar108

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Lunar108
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we as a human beings have a limited life span , since it's pretty obvious we can't do an in depth study of all the religions out there , or in order to do that we will need multiple life times , however we can place multiple parameters to judge religion , and here I would like to mention few :
1.moral parameters :
parameter A
when we are judging the moral values mentioned by that religion and this is just half of that , like we will not accept any religion that's ok with eating living humans , allows the marriage of little children , or discriminate with homosexuals ,
**ignore the part of discriminating with homosexuals since in ancient time s the number of people living on earth was very small and they needed every one to contribute to the community and continuing and helping the survival of the human race along with the abysmal chance of survival of babys  
but that is not accepted today .
parameter B
the moral values of the person carrying the message of god ,in other words the chosen person by that god to send his message :
let us say this a child rapist enter your house and tells you I'm chosen by god to deliver his message would you :
a.call the police.
b.call the police
c. call the f***ing police
and don't tell me that back then it was OK since the person chosen by god should know that this is wrong for one of two reasons :
1. he/she take their moral values from their god
2. god is omnipotent being and should have known that in the future people will see this as wrong .
--this is where the prophet of islam fails in his marriage from 6 years old child where he consummated his marriage with her at 9 -Sahih al-Bukhari 5134 ,  Book 67, Hadith 70 ,Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 65-
add to that that muhammad had no children with aisha , he had children with other wives but most of them died but only two he didn't have children with
1. was too old to have children
2.was too young (9 years old or less) to have any children
--this is also where many hindu gods fail , the list is too tall to be mentioned at once --
=========================================================================================
now that we cleared the moral parameters we move to the next
the scientific parameters :
religion needs to provide a scientific evidence to be reviewed and checked by both linguistical experts in the language of the original text and scientist to check whether it's true or false take islam for example :
they claim that god mentioned the stages of the creation of the embryo  , sadly though not only it's wrong but allah got the number of months women get pregnant wrong ,I think I mentioned the widening of the universe before , and how they deceive with similar words 
===========================================================================================
now that we cleared the previous two we can move to the third one 
the logical parameters :
basically no supernatural elements -you might as will discard all religions here-
and I don't mean just supernatural creature like werewolves , vampires , angels , demons ,,,,,oh wait GOD too
I'm talking about stories like that of hercules
-people splitting the moon or the red sea
-walking on water or on air
-reviving the dead:   -why every time they revive the dead , the dead talk about everyday matters ? shouldn't they talk about god , hell , angels , demons , heaven and start praying sincerely and praising god-
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I mean we live in this world and we have analyze it with science and such feats can't be achieved now let alone back then
at the very least a very strong evidence supporting such acts of the supernatural
unlike the prophet of islam muhammad who split the moon and yet no one saw it other than the arabs living around mecca , who also happen to be all muslim believers ,every single one narrating this story was a muslim
chinese people who worship the moon/(believed immortals lived there) didn't see it , the maya and inka didn't see it (they sacrifice people everyday so the sun would come up the next day), Achaemenid Empire didn't see it , the roman empire didn't see it , people living in africa didn't see it ,
no one on earth other than
only muhammad , his follower and the believers of islam saw it .
-------------------------------------
also muhammad went to outer space and beyond on the back of al-buraq -a mythical creature that looks like a donkey but with wings/flying donkey-
forgot to mention outer space doesn't have oxygen/air to breath
pretty hard to miss since humans need to breath in order to stay alive and suffering from asphyxiation can be both memorable and painful
or that the earth is a sphere
please provide a similar case to a religion of your own choosing
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Religion has nothing to do with science.
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@Polytheist-Witch
but many religions claim that they have scientific miracles mentioned in their text and people back then didn't know this and that
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@Lunar108
 If you were to say I can't be religious because I can't apply science to it to verify it I get that that makes sense. To say religions are false because it's not scientific isn't the same thing. Religion involves ritual and worship of a deity of some kind, one or many, but the point is there's an interaction between the believer and a god ( s). Religion works on faith the same as any other interpersonal relationship. Now if you were to say to me I also can't believe in religion because I can't see the being that I have a relationship with or I'm interacting with I get that. But for those of us that are theist and genuine theists there should have been some kind of point where you felt an interaction with that being on some level. That is what's referred to as a calling or an experience. Where at some point during prayer, meditation, ritual or worship you experienced an internal feeling where you felt you were interacting with something outside yourself. That feeling should have triggered a continued feeling of interacting with the being outside yourself. That is belief / faith and religion is an organized worship of that being based on your belief /faith. If you haven't experienced that then you're not going to ever be religious. But there are plenty people who have experienced that, outside yourself universal wholeness, that don't necessarily attribute it to a god that engage in a spiritual practice. Those are traditions that tend to lean towards a soul but no gods like Buddhism. But again there's that sense of being more to existence than just being a person on the Earth.
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@Polytheist-Witch
my scientific parameters only apply to religions that claim they have scientific miracles mentioned in their holy books
like islam :
all of them are misinterpreted words
they switch what arabic word means with one very similar and very close but means something else
or christianity :
same as muslims they switch the words meaning to fit scientific evidence into their book
or judaism:
or hindusim:
and many other religions
they just look in the scriptures for the closest thing to the latest scientific discoveries , if a word stand in your way then look for a similar looking word with different meaning or change the meaning of the word to meet what you need , then shove the discovery in your holy book.
now you can act smug and claim that your holy book contains knowledge that shouldn't have been known back then .
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all of them are misinterpreted words and if we invite a linguistical you will find that all of them are wrong ,
take islam , why don't they mention that allah mentioned how many months a woman needs to give birth ? because allah got it wrong even the stages mentioned by allah where the child is created as blood the the blood becomes bone then the bone get covered by flesh is obvously wrong.
--------------------------
take the widening of the universe mentioned in the quran , the word is wasaa which means in arabic "can, or capable" they translated as waseaa which means widens now it's scientific miracle , the quran mentioned the widening of the universe 1400 years before they discover it , wasaa and waseaa are written the same in arabic and by switching them you'll need a linguistic -or someone that studied arabic for a very long time- to tell the difference   .
=====================================================================
this reminds me in the moral parameters of islam :
muhammad lusted after his adopted sons wife  
this is mentioned in the holy quran
his son divorced his wife just so that muhammad (his adoptive father) could marry her
his son response for his father's lusting after his wife was to say " as you wish or the chosen prophet of allah" and he divorced her so that his father would marry her
==================================================

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@Lunar108
Well that's the problem with the religions that have holy books which tend to be the monotheist religions. Now they can claim that their miracles are scientific but they're not and if people are trying to apply science to explain them then they have no faith. Most of the things that happened in myths did not happen on the Earth. If they had there would be more proof of them. If religious myth isn't being taught in school with science, then whether or not a person wants to think of it as science really isn't any of your business. When they want to teach it in schools or they want to apply it in a way that affects you then you can have a problem with it. If you want to use science as a reason to not believe in gods again that's fine that's your prerogative. But you're not going to convince me that I need to use science to decide whether or not there's  are gods because science has nothing to do with religion.
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@Polytheist-Witch
if you're not going to judge which religion to follow with science and logic , then how are you going to judge religion ?
with unreliable feelings and personal experiences ?
science : is the laws that govern the universe explained 
and if I want to argue for god I'll say that god should be aware of the laws which it(god) created if it(god) existed
but this doesn't apply to the religions you represent since your god/gods didn't create the world
or is it because your parents and society told you that your religion is the only right and true one?
will guess what , you're not the only one , every single religious parent tell their children that about their religion
and there're many countries out there where religion is taught to children in schools
Not to mention how parents teach children who can't judge right from wrong their religion
and whether it's my business or not is not for you to decide
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Isn't Ecstasy (the drug) really God?
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@Lunar108
My feelings are reliable enough to choose friends and a spouse. Sorry you live in fear of others because emotion is infallible. My gods don't claim to have invented universal laws. My parents didn't practice a religion. My family who did are not my religion. Your treading into atheist bigotry. If you get to decide what I do in my home I can decide things for you too. My child has not been taught my religion. Quit letting your hate decide how people live and actually engage with others. Oh wait, you can't.  
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@Polytheist-Witch
Most of the things that happened in myths did not happen on the Earth.

So where are these "mythical" things happening, then Witch?
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm not telling people how to live their lives , I'm just placing parameters to help judge whether a religion is the true one or not
and since many argue about that , and many want to know the truth -about who created the universe they can either use the parameters mentioned before or place that's of their own
if you don't want to use the parameters I've mentioned before feel free to create your own parameters to judge religions - if you feel like looking for which religion to follow-
and why should you follow the true one ? to begin with , you have the right to believe whatever you want, many follow a certain religions because it's fun like The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
it's my favorite religion , it's definitely wrong according to my parameters , spaghetti is my fav food after MSG
=========================================================================================
I'm just placing parameters to help people who want to look for and find which religion is true and which is wrong
and don't forget all religion could be wrong
Polytheist-Witch
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All gods exists so each religion is true for those gods. Religion isn't meant to be universal. No god created the universe. Just their world or worlds.
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@Polytheist-Witch
many religions claim to be universal and claim that following any other religion will end you up -or should I say down- in hell
including :
the two abrahamic religion
islam
christianity
judaism
wait maybe not judaism
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@Lunar108
Polytheist religions aren't like that and they usually don't have holy books.
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@Polytheist-Witch
and for the thousandth time the scientific argument apply only on gods which are omnipotent ,claimed to have created the universe , and have claims of scientific miracles mentioned in their holy books
since your religion don't have a holy book the scientific argument doesn't apply to it , how many times should I repeat this
unlike islam which have the holy quran
holy quran in the verse 18.86  :
"the sun sets in a muddy pool of water"
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@Polytheist-Witch
@Stephen
Most of the things that happened in myths did not happen on the Earth.

So where are these "mythical" things happening, then Witch?
I'm very interested in hearing about this too
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@Lunar108
Oh don't worry, I'm f****** done.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Oh don't worry, I'm f****** done.

Before you go, just answer this for me ,Witch.

You say above:

No god created the universe. Just their world or worlds.#12

Where are these worlds of the gods and how old are your own  gods?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Science is as simple or as complicated as is necessary.

But to understanding any process fully whether it be religion or making custard, is to understand the complex processes of matter and the brain.



So Professor Poly.......EXACTLY what happens when you think that you're a polytheist?

If you think that it's external magic blokes firing data signals into your brain....Then you are undoubtedly mistaken/deluded.


And EXACTLY.....What makes custard happen?


For sure......Definitively, cooking,  religion and science are different.

But to understand fully, one needs to apply science to them all.

14 days later

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@Lunar108
- Those are not parameters of Truth in any sense whatsoever, more like tastes or feelings. Sorry!
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@Lunar108
we as a human beings have a limited life span , since it's pretty obvious we can't do an in depth study of all the religions out there , or in order to do that we will need multiple life times , however we can place multiple parameters to judge religion , and here I would like to mention few :
Surely that should give you a pretty big clue.  In the possibility God exists - certain presumptions must come into play. I am glad you are thinking about this - a pity you are still thinking from an atheistic point of view in the first place.  

1.moral parameters :
parameter A
when we are judging the moral values mentioned by that religion and this is just half of that , like we will not accept any religion that's ok with eating living humans , allows the marriage of little children , or discriminate with homosexuals ,
**ignore the part of discriminating with homosexuals since in ancient time s the number of people living on earth was very small and they needed every one to contribute to the community and continuing and helping the survival of the human race along with the abysmal chance of survival of babys  
but that is not accepted today .
Hence my point above: Surely the starting point is whether absolute morals exist or not?  If they do - God exists - if they don't, then God does not.  Pretty simple really.  Is cannibalism an absolute wrong and is the marriage of little children wrong and is it wrong to discriminate against homosexuals.  If you think the first two are absolutes - the God exists.  You must ask yourself why it is absolutely wrong.  Remembering that in ancient Greece- in Plato's time - it was acceptable for people to sexually use children and even eat people. 

What is your measure of right and wrong? 

For the record, Christianity considers cannibalism and pedophilia ABSOLUTELY wrong and corrupt and evil.   Christianity also considers homosexuality sinful and therefore morally wrong.  I note in relation to homosexuality - for Christians this is not the unforgiveable sin and indeed along with murderers, adulterers, and even pedophiles - some will take their place in heaven. 

parameter B
the moral values of the person carrying the message of god ,in other words the chosen person by that god to send his message :
let us say this a child rapist enter your house and tells you I'm chosen by god to deliver his message would you :
a.call the police.
b.call the police
c. call the f***ing police
and don't tell me that back then it was OK since the person chosen by god should know that this is wrong for one of two reasons :
1. he/she take their moral values from their god
2. god is omnipotent being and should have known that in the future people will see this as wrong .
--this is where the prophet of islam fails in his marriage from 6 years old child where he consummated his marriage with her at 9 -Sahih al-Bukhari 5134 ,  Book 67, Hadith 70 ,Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 65-
add to that that muhammad had no children with aisha , he had children with other wives but most of them died but only two he didn't have children with
1. was too old to have children
2.was too young (9 years old or less) to have any children
--this is also where many hindu gods fail , the list is too tall to be mentioned at once --
I'm not sure of your point here.  As a Christian minister, we would never agree that a child rapist - should ever come with a message from God. Of course God chooses to work through whomever he chooses to work through.  Yet, we at least in the modern world, would not accept such a person's point of view - since we would also agree that such a person ought to have been put to death - but wasn't due to the modern sensitivities.  There is no example in the Bible of a child sex offender being used by God.  If a child rapist made this claim - the church would reject it.   

Yes we do believe in redemption - nevertheless, such redemption is not a license to do whatsoever you want.  In the Pressie church in Victoria we believe in forgiveness. Yet we also believe in the protection of young people.  We don't want to refuse anyone the opportunity to hear the gospel and go to church - yet nor do we want people to feel unsafe.   Hence we have set up churches for people who are not allowed to go to ordinary churches - and within reach of children. We very much agree with the protection of children. There is not compromise on that score. Yet - since we do believe our message - and do believe that the gospel changes people hearts and lives - we also provide places for such people to attend.  










now that we cleared the moral parameters we move to the next
the scientific parameters :
religion needs to provide a scientific evidence to be reviewed and checked by both linguistical experts in the language of the original text and scientist to check whether it's true or false take islam for example :
they claim that god mentioned the stages of the creation of the embryo  , sadly though not only it's wrong but allah got the number of months women get pregnant wrong ,I think I mentioned the widening of the universe before , and how they deceive with similar words 
===========================================================================================
now that we cleared the previous two we can move to the third one 
the logical parameters :
basically no supernatural elements -you might as will discard all religions here-
and I don't mean just supernatural creature like werewolves , vampires , angels , demons ,,,,,oh wait GOD too
I'm talking about stories like that of hercules
-people splitting the moon or the red sea
-walking on water or on air
-reviving the dead:   -why every time they revive the dead , the dead talk about everyday matters ? shouldn't they talk about god , hell , angels , demons , heaven and start praying sincerely and praising god-
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I mean we live in this world and we have analyze it with science and such feats can't be achieved now let alone back then
at the very least a very strong evidence supporting such acts of the supernatural
unlike the prophet of islam muhammad who split the moon and yet no one saw it other than the arabs living around mecca , who also happen to be all muslim believers ,every single one narrating this story was a muslim
chinese people who worship the moon/(believed immortals lived there) didn't see it , the maya and inka didn't see it (they sacrifice people everyday so the sun would come up the next day), Achaemenid Empire didn't see it , the roman empire didn't see it , people living in africa didn't see it ,
no one on earth other than
only muhammad , his follower and the believers of islam saw it .
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also muhammad went to outer space and beyond on the back of al-buraq -a mythical creature that looks like a donkey but with wings/flying donkey-
forgot to mention outer space doesn't have oxygen/air to breath
pretty hard to miss since humans need to breath in order to stay alive and suffering from asphyxiation can be both memorable and painful
or that the earth is a sphere
please provide a similar case to a religion of your own choosing



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@Yassine
Truth is.

Though we might not be aware of it.

And we might create our own parameters.
Lunar108
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@Yassine
are you comparing " science , logic , and morality " to unreliable feelings 
then tell me , what parameters are you going to  use to judge religion ?
I'm very interested in knowing
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@Lunar108
are you comparing " science , logic , and morality " to unreliable feelings 
then tell me , what parameters are you going to  use to judge religion ?
I'm very interested in knowin
- Truth can be attained through empirical or demonstrative ways, through the various reasoning modes, deductive or inductive. For instance, structural statements (such as mathematics or philosophical conclusions) require deductive demonstration; scientific hypotheses require abductive validation; historical events require probabilistic evaluation (of testimonies for example); moral claims require defeasible reasoning or analogical analysis...etc.
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@Yassine
I am not asking you about the truth , I am asking you how do we judge religion ? what parameters should we use ?
what does the truth have to do with judging religion ?
and let me ask you what is the 
 probabilistic evaluation
of a man living in the iron age , in the middle of a desert 1500 years ago , getting to outer space and beyond (outside our universe) and then getting back ?
and what is the
 probabilistic evaluation
of the moon getting cut into two halves because a man living 1500 years ago prayed to his god
and NOT a single testimony about that existing in any country or group of people who lived back then other than his followers ?
=========================================
do women give birth in 6 months ?
"The quran provides that the length of a normal gestation (pregnancy) is six months (Luqman 31:14; al-Baqarah 2:233; al-Ahqaf 46:15). Luqman 31:14 and al-Baqarah 2:233 provide a nursing period of 24 months. Al-Ahqaf 46:15 provides a total of 30 months for both gestation and nursing combined. This leaves only six months for the period of gestation .
correct me if I am wrong but they need 10 sets of four weeks to give birth 
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@Lunar108

Yes, Muhammad split the moon after the pagan Meccans asked for a miracle. 
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@FLRW
then why did nobody in the world saw it other than muhammad's followers , even nasa denied that they descovered any evidence supporting that the moon was ever split ?
NOT a single civilization that lived back then mentions that- the moon was split- why ?

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@Lunar108

OMG, you are saying that God is not real?
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@FLRW
how about you answer my previous question first ?
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@Lunar108

You know that I am an atheist, don't you?