Just a rant

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 15
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,741
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
Conservatives tell Latin Americans: Your welcome here, but don't bring your 3rd world socialist values with you.

Taxes-1024x520.png (1024×520) (vividmaps.com) states that Latin America has lower taxes on their rich than America does generally.  Even Venezuela has lower taxes on the rich than America does.  If the Latin Americans didn't bring their "shithole values" with them, they would be advocating for higher taxes on the rich.  They also would be opposed to UHC, because most Latin American countries have UHC and America doesn't(Universal Healthcare by Country 20191229 - List of countries with universal health care - Wikipedia).

How can a region that has UHC have lower taxes than America?  Yeah, America spends a lot on the military, but only around 3.5% of the US's GDP goes to military.  If the US spent a comparable amount on the military to Latin American countries, our taxes on the 1% would be about the same.

I also don't understand how any poor person votes republican.  Yeah, they promise lower taxes (in reality, it's lower taxes for the wealthy), but lower taxes means less government services, and I'm sure the poor use government services more than what they pay in taxes (as do most people).  If you have 1 kid in school, you are using $12,000 of government services per year.  The average parent has about 2 kids in school, leading to them costing the government $24,000 a year, yet they pay less than this in taxes.

When people say, "We want lower taxes", they might as well say, "We want lower taxes for the top 1% and we will cut the education budget to pay for it".  If they said the ladder statement, I'd at least respect the right.  Instead, they gloss up their policies as, "Lower taxes".  The democrats are being idiots, because they never tell the GOP and their base, "Lower taxes means less government services that your base disproportionally relies on" and as a result, the democrats end up not dominating elections.

If everyone voted solely on their best interests, you would see democrats winning elections by margins of 99% to 1% (the bottom 99% vs the top 1%), because the typical person gets more from the government over the course of their lifetime than what they pay in taxes.  This applies to everyone but the top 1%.  Even if they are in the top 1%, if they aren't too religious or prochoice, they would be willing to pay higher taxes to keep abortion legal.

This means most conservative voters vote for reasons OTHER than their best interests.  They may be pro life, so they support the Unborn's life over their own, and as a result they are willing to sacrifice their own livelihood to save a stranger fetus.  I don't understand how they can care about stranger fetuses but not care about their own kids that they know by advocating for higher taxes on the rich to give their kids a better education and to give them free healthcare.  They may support the right to own an AK 47 (a right most of these conservatives don't use as there are only about 20 million assault weapons in the US (U.S. Has At Least 20 Million Assault Rifles. A Ban Wouldn’t Reduce That Number. (forbes.com)) and the people that own them tend to own multiple of them, leading to most people advocating for the right to own an AK 47 not owning one themselves). 

Granted, I'm not saying liberals don't do similar stuff.  Most liberals who advocate the right to smoke weed don't smoke weed, and many that are pro choice will never get an abortion, but there are reasons that benefit themselves (more funding for healthcare to save them some money) and others for the typical person to vote democrat.  There are only reasons that benefit others as a reason to vote republican.

This brings me to the question: Should people vote on their own best interests, or the interests of others?  If the former applies, democrats win every election by about 99% to 1%, but I could argue voting on your best interests is selfish (granted, there are times where being selfish is morally justified).  If the ladder applies, then people care more about others than themselves (even if done irrationally by preferring to spare a stranger fetus over educating their own children and giving them free healthcare), but it also means democrats have to compete for votes, instead of painting the GOP as the party of the 1% (which the GOP kind of is and I would prefer it if they just admitted that they want to cut taxes for the 1% and cut spending on government programs because it's socialist).

I'm just rambling.  What are your thoughts on this?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 571
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Granted, I'm not saying liberals don't do similar stuff.  Most liberals who advocate the right to smoke weed don't smoke weed, and many that are pro choice will never get an abortion
It is the oppression that is hypocritical if one does what they support prohibiting, it does not work the other way around...
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,741
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@RationalMadman
A conservative can make the same argument about being unvaccinated or having 20 AK 47s in your home.
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,249
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
Loyalty, Values, Independence, and Game Theory is my bet.

People loyal to their group and values, so they sacrifice some options that would for themselves as 'individuals be better.
After all, their kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, will have to grow up, follow laws of the system.

Lot of people just don't like government butting in to 'help them,
To tell them though the 'state can run a lottery, individuals can't,
Though the state can construct a building there, 'you cant,
Here's some bales of paperwork to fill out to start a restaurant.

As for game theory, health care is good, but a military is vital.

. . .

As for how a person should vote, Selfish or Altruism?
I'd say mixed,
Reasonable limits to both, depending on individual, culture, circumstance, game theory, future impacts.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,713
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
 (which the GOP kind of is and I would prefer it if they just admitted that they want to cut taxes for the 1% and cut spending on government programs because it's socialist).
Clearly you haven't heard of Salt deductions, a purely Democrat construct. In most 1 party states like New York and California, the top 1 percent pay more to the Democrat party than they do in taxes. Otherwise, they would have left 50 years ago. Not to mention, the rich can only generate a fraction of the revenue needed to support government spending anyway since there's not as many ultra rich as you think in the country, so don't blame the rich for all the deficit spending. Blame both parties for not taxing the poor enough to support such outrageous spending.

thanks to inflation though, the poor are finally paying their fair share.


RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 571
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
No... they cannot.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,741
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
In most 1 party states like New York and California, the top 1 percent pay more to the Democrat party than they do in taxes.
This is false.  The top 1% pay about 40% of their income to the government.  They don't donate this much to the democrats.

Not to mention, the rich can only generate a fraction of the revenue needed to support government spending anyway since there's not as many ultra rich as you think in the country
A 10% wealth tax on the billionaires would raise about $1 trillion/year.  Do this, cut spending, increase taxpayer count, increase GDP as a result, and we can balance the budget.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,713
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
The top 1% pay about 40% of their income to the government. 
That's not true at all lol. You might not know what exemptions and deductions are. You should google them.

A 10% wealth tax on the billionaires would raise about $1 trillion/year.
A wealth tax can only fund spending for 1 year since you can't tax the same wealth the next year as it will be significantly diminished. You can only sustainably tax production (not wealth) annually. The top 1 percent don't have as much income as you think, it is mostly savings and investments.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,741
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
There may be deductions, but would you support getting rid of all deductions?  If so, you sound like a democrat.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,713
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
There may be deductions, but would you support getting rid of all deductions?  If so, you sound like a democrat.
Maybe it would sound like a Democrat lie, but every 1 percenter that has lived in 1 party rule states like California know it's a pay to play system, and they pay the politicians for the exemptions and have been doing so for over 50 years of 1 party rule. The poor people just believe the lies because they are not told how exemptions and deductions work or how politicians get paid for creating them.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,741
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Your dodging the question.  Do you support removing all deductions for the top 1%?  If yes, you sound like a democrat.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,713
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
Your dodging the question.  Do you support removing all deductions for the top 1%?  If yes, you sound like a democrat.
No I wouldn't lol. If I supported removing all deductions I would sound like a crazy man like Chavez or Maduro. There's no faster way to crash the economy than to destroy supply chains and production at a rate of 40% a year.

At least the Democrats are reasonable enough to limit the destruction to just 8% via inflation each year.
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
I always vote in my best interests. It’s more beneficial to me having a more equitable society in which everyone has an opportunity to succeed than having an extra $200 a month. The impact of crime, drugs, homelessness, climate change - etc are all much worse than my tiny shade of any tax supported policy that successfully mitigates it. This is not even getting into the general benefit to me personally of not having to worry that I will go bankrupt if I lose my job - or the benefit to my peace of mind for not living in a country where people have to ration insulin.


The issue isn’t about self interest or altruism - it’s largely about a form of enlightened self interest - realizing that there is an inherent benefit in having policies and spending money helping others, both directly as I could wind up needing that help in the future - and indirectly as a healthy, functioning society that allows individuals to succeed is worth more to all of our own personal success and well being than the money it would take to meet it.


The problem is the way of thinking. If your priorities and view on life is money, possessions, your investment portfolio, how big a car you can have; then you’re going to have a different set of concerns than if your priorities are happiness, well-being and not being a total c**t to people.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 571
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@TheUnderdog
 The democrats are being idiots, because they never tell the GOP and their base, "Lower taxes means less government services that your base disproportionally relies on" and as a result, the democrats end up not dominating elections.

Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
This means most conservative voters vote for reasons OTHER than their best interests
A funny story, one of my Trump supporting friends on Facebook continually railed against socialism, and how the democrats were going to destroy the country….

Then constantly opined at the cost of healthcare, outrages at the price of insulin, and that we shouldn’t have to have gofundme when someone gets cancer - and professed outrage at wage and income inequality; and how the super wealthy need to be controlled and regulated. 

In fact - take away the red hats - she’d sound like Bernie sanders.


Republicans almost invariably vote against their interests - mainly because their party has spent the last 30 years drilling into their supporters how the democrats are attacking their way of life.

The democrats aren’t really going to “take your guns”,  there is no “war on Christmas”, no one is being taught to hate America, but that’s the narrative that keeps peoples focus off all the things republicans actually want.

In the last decade or so - its apparent the swing in how inherently unpopular the republicans real policies are; and how much distraction they need to give their supporters - given that it’s gone from war on Christmas to “zomg they want to destroy the country”.