Should public school be banned?

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheMorningsStar
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@SkepticalOne
The present accepted understanding of gender has not occurred without substantiation.
And do you hold this view merely because it has become the consensus among sociologists? Or do you have some other justification for this?
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@SkepticalOne
The scientific status quo is not asserted without evidence. ;-)
The BoP is created by your assertions. If you aren't asserting anything then you had nothing to say in the first place and you're simply wasting people's time.


No. The present accepted understanding of gender has not occurred without substantiation. Ie. The burden has been met.
And your opposition can just as easily claim the arguments have been debunked else where. Your burden has not been met.


If there is no proof (or support) it should be treated as false even if there is no proof it is false.
If there is no proof for a position, it's truth is dubious - not false. A claim of "False" comes with its own burden. ;-)
That is an untenable epistemological strategy. The number of false statements approaches infinity, your thought time is finite.
zedvictor4
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@Dr.Franklin
Spurious evidence Doc.

Not a fact in sight.


Happy Chocolate Egg weekend to you and yours Doc.


Did you know that Chocolate Egg Day is a Pagan fertility festival based upon a Pagan fertility festival?....And that's a fact.
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@SkepticalOne
Your main objection seems to be a failure of public schools is that they teach facts (you dont agree with). A functionally equivalent position would be 'a failure of schools is that they teach about the big bang/heliocentrism/evolution'.
People being born in the “wrong” bodies and actually being a member of the opposite sex is not a fact. It’s much much closer to a religious position than a scientific one—a pre existing soul, fundamentally separate to the body, is male or female in character and can be placed in the wrong body, which must be modified to suit it. I gave you an argument for why none of this makes sense and you haven’t addressed it at all, despite directing three subsequent posts to me. It seems like you don’t want to take the time to try and deconstruct my argument but still want to feel like you got the last word.

No. The present accepted understanding of gender has not occurred without substantiation. Ie. The burden has been met
 You realize this argument can be used against any social change….right? 

2002: “The present understanding of marriage has not occurred without substantiation. Ie. the burden has been met. So no, I won’t engage with your argument for why this violates equal protection under the law.”
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@zedvictor4
Yes, Anglo-Saxon pagans celebrated this time of rebirth by invoking Ēostre or Ostara, the goddess of spring, the dawn, and fertility. Particularly in ancient times, fertility was of singular importance to ensure the survival of a species or group of people (after all, if you didn't get it on, there would be no future generations). To celebrate nature’s “rebirth,” the ancients would hold festivals in April to honor the Goddess, which most likely included lavish sex rituals, and even full-on orgies.
Ancient tribal people were no strangers to sex rituals: worshippers of Dionysus, the Greek god of wine, fertility, and madness, would hold orgies in order to celebrate and evoke the ecstatic state of the son of Zeus. Ultimately, in the ancient traditions, sex didn’t have the same shameful taboos like it does today.
SkepticalOne
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@thett3

We have had serious engagement about why schools should not be banned. Your main objection seems to be a failure of public schools is that they teach facts (you dont agree with). A functionally equivalent position would be 'a failure of schools is that they teach about the big bang/heliocentrism/evolution'. Reasons why fact X shouldn’t be a fact is a completely different argument that needs to be resolved before it carries any weight for the original argument.  Basically, your argument relies on the results of another argument that cannot be resolved by the two of us. 
This addresses the state of our discussion fairly well. You rejecting accepted fact does not change accepted fact. Schools teach facts. If you don't like the facts, that's a 'you problem', not a school issue.

For what its worth, I'm not sure why you need me to accept your beliefs. If you are so sure about your position why are you wasting time with a random dude on the internet? Get out of this dark corner of the web and let the experts know you are their superior!  ;-) 
Greyparrot
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@thett3
Do you have a link to that story about the 20 out of 30 children that identified as trans after the teacher indoctrinated them?
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@SkepticalOne
You rejecting accepted fact does not change accepted fact.
@settledscience.org
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@Greyparrot
Um...okay.  @sciencedenialism... Did I win?!

Seriously, science is provisional. If you think a scientific conclusion is wrong, get to work! ;-)
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@SkepticalOne
science is provisional.
Thanks for exposing your hypocrisy.
thett3
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@SkepticalOne
This addresses the state of our discussion fairly well. You rejecting accepted fact does not change accepted fact. Schools teach facts. If you don't like the facts, that's a 'you problem', not a school issue.
Post #4 of you asserting your position is a “fact” while ignoring an argument to the contrary 

For what its worth, I'm not sure why you need me to accept your beliefs. If you are so sure about your position why are you wasting time with a random dude on the internet? Get out of this dark corner of the web and let the experts know you are their superior!  ;-)
I don’t need you to accept my beliefs. I didn’t consider this conversation to be a waste of time until you stopped engaging and started trolling. But even now I still don’t think it’s a waste of time, it’s very amusing to me that you keep coming back despite totally ignoring the argument I’ve made. What are you hoping to gain? You can always just refute my argument you know 
thett3
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@Greyparrot
Do you have a link to that story about the 20 out of 30 children that identified as trans after the teacher indoctrinated them?

They came out as LGBT, not Trans and I heard about it here. And before anyone jumps down my throat, yes I acknowledge this particular incident could be made up or out of context somehow. I also acknowledge that the entire purpose of this account is to persuade people into a certain position. But I’ve seen hundreds of similar anecdotes including two in my personal life…can’t all be made up. At this particular school I saw the videos myself of kindergarten age kids waving pride flags in the hall 

SkepticalOne
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@Greyparrot
science is provisional.
Thanks for exposing your hypocrisy.
Not at all. Just because science is provisional doesn't mean we should reject where all current evidence leads us.
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@thett3
it's obviously clear from the recorded suicide rates that this is anything but established settled science that should be universally accepted.

The soultions don't include giving attention seekers more attention to fill the void. It doesn't erase the reason why the void exists in the first place.

It's not reversing the rising suicide trend.

SkepticalOne
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@thett3
Post #4 of you asserting your position is a “fact” while ignoring an argument to the contrary 

I didn’t consider this conversation to be a waste of time until you stopped engaging and started trolling.

This discussion lost its direction when you stubbornly refused to acknowledge schools teach facts and your beliefs aren't accepted as facts. You are simply trying to kick the can down the road looking for the 'real' goalposts in an effort to save face. It could be academia ends up accepting your beliefs as facts, but they don't right now and that is where your argument dies.
TheMorningsStar
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@SkepticalOne
Seriously, science is provisional. If you think a scientific conclusion is wrong, get to work! ;-)
I'm sorry, but this statement makes it clear that you do not understand the state of sociology within academia at the moment. Journals do not look for good papers, they look for papers that fit the narrative they want to push. This is why the Sokal Squared Hoax was possible. While hoax papers can make it into any field, sociology has the worst ability to discern hoax from legitimate and is the only field to give an award to a hoax paper.

In the 2018 paper "The Social and Political Views of American Professors" we see that 43% of academics in the social sciences and humanities self identify as marxists, radical leftists or left-wing activists. Only 3-5% identified themselves as conservative. This is a drastic change from 60 years ago. In the late 60's a study was conducted that was published in the 1975 book "The Divided Academy". The conclusions from this book, 46% of professors described themselves as liberal, 27% described themselves as moderates, and 28% described themselves as conservative.

I want you to look at this. In the 60's it was 46% that identified themselves as being on the left at all, now it is almost that amount (43%) that identify themselves as far-left. There is a large political bias within the field.

The 2020 paper "A Model of Political Bias in Social Science Research" points out how the left-wing bias in the field can influence bias in not only what theories and papers are accepted, but in what questions even get asked, and even in how likely conservatives are to actually pursue a degree in the field. Essentially, the political bias of the field has infected it so much so that certain questions cannot even be asked, let alone any hope of papers that disagree with the political narrative finding publication on anything close to the same level as those that fall in-line with the narrative. This bias has also lead to what a number of surveys, cited by the paper, point out, that conservative students report greater experiences of hostility from instructors than liberal students, so much so that even liberal students have stated that "conservative and religious students are the disproportionate recipients of hostility from university faculty" when asked.

I could go on and on, but the point is that the field of sociology has become so politicized that it isn't an objective field anymore. No one should be surprised about this considering the papers on "fat studies" that are coming out that are in direct conflict with the understanding by the hard sciences yet are accepted and are increasingly part of the mainstream of sociology.

You say that if the field is wrong that we should "get to work", but without a massive change forced upon the field such a thing is almost certainly impossible, and not because the conclusion is sound. The field is not objective, they are one of the most politically biased fields out there, they have the worst track record at preventing hoax papers (and even have given one an award), etc. You do not understand what is going on within the field of sociology and instead are just treating it the same as any other field when it isn't comparable.
Greyparrot
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@SkepticalOne
Just because science is provisional doesn't mean we should reject where all current evidence leads us.
It doesn't mean you should accept them either without skepticism.

schools teach facts 
There was a time where unskeptical people accepted schools teaching  that Jews were subhuman as established fact.
thett3
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@SkepticalOne
Maybe the 5th time will be the charm

"You should be able to justify your positions on their own merits instead of simply claiming that the "experts" are on your side. My position in short is that gender dysphoria is a body image disorder, in which individuals are uncomfortable in their own bodies and believe that if they were born the opposite gender they would be comfortable in their bodies. People can not be born in the "wrong" bodies because for all intents and purposes, your body is you, a boy or a girl born in your place would not be you but instead would be someone else. You can make changes to your body, but the changes made in an attempt to change sex are not positive ones but ones that limit a persons potential or actively harm them (sterilize them, block puberty in prime growing years, mutilate their genitals/sex organs into organs that do not function and make them ill.) There is literally no other body image disorder in which we accept that the persons viewpoint is valid and try to change their body to match. There are people who for some reason want a healthy limb removed, imagine if physicians agreed to remove them. Imagine if an anorexic or bulimic 14 year old girl was given liposuction or put on a weight loss diet. This is the same as removing a young girls breasts to try to make her a "man" or giving a teenaged boy estrogen.

The liberal position is that the above makes me a monster because unlike those other disorders trans people are ACTUALLY born into the wrong sex, and their sex doesn't match their gender identity. I believe that sex and gender are inherently linked (if indeed there even is a difference) and brute forcing your body into a pale and sad imitation of the opposite sex never works.  The liberal position, in my view, is fundamentally incoherent because it simultaneously argues that gender identity is unrelated to sex in that an individual can choose/"discover" their gender identity but at the same time it is imperative that we allow children to transition as young as possible so that they can look as close as possible to...the opposite *sex*, as in the secondary sex characteristics derived from biology. The entire thing presupposes valid and consistent definitions of "man and woman" in the first place, otherwise no one could be born in the "wrong" body, but this takes us back to the gender binary. The ideal situation for a person suffering from gender dysphoria is that they come to terms with the body as it is and foster a positive self identity on that basis instead of chasing the impossible. TheMorningStar, being smarter than me on philosophy and actually having experienced this stuff first hand put it much better. But since you won't accept a link to a discussion on this website, that's my position.

For a number of complicated reasons, including but not limited to an ongoing societal fixation on identity and the elevation of "oppressed" identities, identifying as trans is a growing trend among the young."




Greyparrot
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@TheMorningsStar
Sokal Squared Hoax
While I was tangentially aware of this problem, thanks for giving me an in depth article to read on this study.
SkepticalOne
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@Greyparrot
It doesn't mean you should accept them either without skepticism.
You're not accepting it at all if I understand your view correctly. If so, you're not in the realm of skepticism, friend.

There was a time where unskeptical people accepted schools teaching  that Jews were subhuman as established fact.
Godwin's law in action. ;-)
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@thett3
Maybe the 5th time will be the charm, but I doubt it. ;-)

This discussion lost its direction when you stubbornly refused to acknowledge schools teach facts and your beliefs aren't accepted as facts. You are simply trying to kick the can down the road looking for the 'real' goalposts in an effort to save face. It could be academia ends up accepting your beliefs as facts, but they don't right now and that is where your argument dies.
Greyparrot
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@SkepticalOne
Godwin's law in action. ;-)
Ok, I can point to 100 other examples where Schools taught "fact" such as the Nutrition pyramid, Blacks are less able, and we came from the garden of eden.

None of those "facts" are taught today due to society relegating non-skeptical people into the realm of absurd obscurity, despite pleas for attention.

schools teach facts
Really, this has to be the dumbest thing I have read on this site from any user, and I have been here a long time.

Clearly, Schools have failed if the product is an acceptance of facts rather than an ability to evaluate what is true.
TheMorningsStar
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@Greyparrot
Really, this has to be the dumbest thing I have read on this site from any user, and I have been here a long time.
Honestly, I have to agree. Should schools teach facts? Sure. Is that what they do? Not at all.
And determining what is a fact and which facts should be part of the school's job to teach is another issue altogether. There are numerous facts and entire fields of study that schools don't teach, and so to default to defending a school teaching something as "well, it is a fact" is insufficient.
Even if it is a fact, something that hasn't been established in the least, that does not make it something a school should teach.
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@TheMorningsStar
If the goal of a school is to indoctrinate children that authorities determine facts, then society is forever lost.
FLRW
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@thett3
People being born in the “wrong” bodies and actually being a member of the opposite sex is not a fact. 
Actually it is.  The human body consists of some 37.2 trillion cells. Doy you think that all these cells work perfectly?
The experience of being gender nonconforming means that a person’s gender at birth (assigned gender) does not match the way they feel about themselves (their affirmed gender).
Gender is expressed through one’s personality, appearance and behavior — typically as either masculine or feminine. Gender nonconformity can appear as young as two or three years of age, when children become aware of the notion of gender and they may assert, “No, I’m a boy,” or “No, I’m a girl.”
Exploring different modes and expressions of gender is a normal part of development during childhood. Young kids often playact favorite characters of a different gender, or enjoy playing dress-up. Most eventually assume the identity of their assigned gender. For some children, gender remains fluid. These kids often identify as non-binary or gender-nonconforming.
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@thett3
 I believe that sex and gender are inherently linked (if indeed there even is a difference) and brute forcing your body into a pale and sad imitation of the opposite sex never works. 
It's exactly the same reason responsible doctors do not allow schizophrenic patients to act out on their delusions. It's their mind that is broken, not the body or the world around them.
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@zedvictor4
another lie from zed
zedvictor4
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@FLRW
Well stated.

Another pagan festival hijacked by Christianity.


zedvictor4
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@Dr.Franklin
Nice Jibe Doc.

But you know that you are wrong.
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@zedvictor4

owned