The Meadows/McCarthy recordings

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Over the past few weeks we’ve seen an onslaught of tapes and messages released publicly detailing what went on behind the scenes with both House Republicans and President Trump’s allies in the aftermath of January 6th. So what is the take away from all this?

Personally, nothing. Anyone paying attention knew all this already, it’s just jarring to actually hear and read it and recognize that this is real life. But to any rational person who hasn’t been paying attention the take away is obvious; the GOP at large doesn’t give a rats ass about truth or reality, they know how batshit crazy all of this is but they also know they have to go along with it if they want to remain in power. Also that right wing news is Republican Party propaganda full stop.

My question is to those who continue to defend Trump, argue that January 6th wasn’t a big deal, or pretend that left wing news is worse… how do you make sense of all this? How do you deal with the fact that all of the people leading the party you defend don’t even believe the ideas they are selling you? How do you continue to believe everyone else is suffering from TDS and you’re the normal one when the people on top of your own party agree with people like me but pretend not to just because they want your vote?
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I think Dennis Hof, the brothel-owning, evangelical Christian-backed Republican Nevada state legislature candidate who nicknamed himself the “Trump from Pahrump,” said it all.  Hof, styled himself as America’s best-known pimp, a strip-club owner who ran multiple brothels. His political rise reflected fundamental changes in electoral norms that have roiled the Republican Party and upended American politics during the era of President Donald Trump.
“This really is the Trump movement,” Hof said in a June interview at Moonlite BunnyRanch, his brothel near his home in Pahrump, Nevada. “People will set aside for a moment their moral beliefs, their religious beliefs, to get somebody that is honest in office.” he died in 2018 at 72 years old.
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McCarthy will be out of a job in Nov 2022 so it's irrelevant.
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No, it’s not, because this isn’t about McCarthy. It was about what the McCarthy tapes and Meadows messages show; that nearly every prominent Republican out there including those selling their message agrees with the left on how dangerous the previous administration was. So my question was, how do people like you make sense out of this?
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Lol, the tapes are a reason he will be out of a job.
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So you’re just ignoring everything I say to focus on whether McCarthy will have a job, which is completely irrelevant to this thread. Got it.
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You can also add Lindsey Graham to the list.

Unlike Marxists, responsible people on the right don't care about credentials over a track record, so there are no safe priests of the party religion like the ones you identified in this thread..
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there are no safe priests of the party religion
lol.  The party religion being:  There is no god but Trump and Trump is his messenger
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How do you deal with the fact that all of the people leading the party you defend don’t even believe the ideas they are selling you? 
This has been true since at least 1968.  Lee Atwater, Reagan's campaign manager put it most succinctly:

Atwater: Y'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger". By 1968, you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this", is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger". So, any way you look at it, race is coming on the back-burner.

We still see this dynamic today.  CRT and BLM are just abstract codes for Republican fear of Black people.  Look at recent court arguments of Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, Rudy Giuliani, Sydney Powell, etc.  In public, they make all kinds of outrageous claims but in front of a judge they defend themselves by saying "no rational person would believe my outrageous claims."  The very lawyers Trump hired to argue fraud in 2020 have testified under oath that they were just making shit up and still Trump requires candidates to claim fraud in 2020 before he'll back them.  The Republican Party is not just a house built on lies, it is house that knows full well that it is built on lies, that counts on those lies being believed by the stupid and chooses to lie in exchange for power.

Jun 15, 2016
Ryan: “Russia is trying to turn Ukraine against itself.”
Rodgers: “Yes. And that’s...it’s sophisticated and it’s, uh...”
Ryan: “Maniacal.”
Rodgers: “Yes.”
Ryan: “And guess, guess who’s the only one taking a strong stand up against it? We are.”
Rodgers: “We’re not…we’re not…but, we’re not.”
McCarthy [referring to DNC hacking]:“I’ll guarantee you that’s what it is...The Russians hacked the DNC and got the opp [opposition] research that they had on Trump.”
Ryan: “The Russians hacked the DNC...
McHenry: “...to get oppo...”
Ryan: “On Trump and like delivered it to...to who?”
McCarthy: “There’s... there’s two people, I think, Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump...Swear to God.”
Ryan: “This is an off the record...No leaks...alright?!. This is how we know we’re a real family here.”
Scalise: “That’s how you know that we’re tight.”
Ryan: “What’s said in the family stays in the family.”

There it is.  Ryan doesn't say, 'that's wrong, you're nuts' he says 'don't let it get out.'   The day after Russian Intel hacked the DNC, the core GOP  leadership knew and believed that Russia and Trump were working together to take the White House and they decided to cover it up.  When the National Security Advisor turns out to be a Russian spy, when Mueller reports 170 meets with Russian agents and 11 attempts to cover it up, when Trump threatens to leave Ukraine exposed if Zelensky won't make up some dirt about Hunter Biden, in all these obvious connections and thousands more, the Republican conscious is not shocked because Russian collusion was already well baked in to the GOP agenda, even before Trump was nominated to the presidency.  Since Nixon, Republicans and the  honest truth parted ways and have not been on speaking terms since.
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How do you deal with the fact that all of the people leading the party you defend don’t even believe the ideas they are selling you? How do you continue to believe everyone else is suffering from TDS and you’re the normal one when the people on top of your own party agree with people like me but pretend not to just because they want your vote?
Well. Where do I start. Party doesn’t mean anything. Establishment is establishment, whether Democrat or Republican. I could give a rat’s ass what Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy think. They’re in it for themselves. Have been since Day 1. I can recognize that the establishment takes care of the establishment. I’ve said this multiple times. I’d rather vote for Bernie than Biden (I actually did). At least the former has been consistent on his views and genuinely believes it’s the right thing whether popular or not. Even though I disagree with everything he stands for, I have the capacity to respect him for it. Can you do the same? Cause believe it or not, Trump isn’t an establishment puppet like Joe.
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Bernie definitely does not take the same marching orders that Biden does from corporate lobbyists.
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Two good examples of Republicans disturbing comfort with obvious lies.  The first item on Sander's agenda was a gigantic tax hike.  Do we really believe Pie and GP would ever get behind a major tax hike?  No, obviously.  Therefore, Pie and GP are both obviously lying when they say they support Sanders on policy.   The truth is that they support Sander's as a democratic nominee because Sanders is divisive.  Republicans have been a minority party for some time and that party is now shrinking at record rates.  Republicans only legal hope for sustainable power is to divide the democrats from the progressives.  This is why Democrats wanted Trump to win the nomination in 2016, because we assumed he could only lose.
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Trump isn’t an establishment puppet like Joe.
No, he's a Russian puppet like David Duke or Alexander Lukashenko or Tucker Carlson.
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Therefore, Pie and GP are both obviously lying when they say they support Sanders on policy.  
Wanna point out where I said that? I’ll wait. Let’s see if you can point it out.

No, he's a Russian puppet like David Duke or Alexander Lukashenko or Tucker Carlson.
And I’m Tom Cruise :)
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You're right.  Please amend that to read  "Therefore, Pie and GP are both obviously lying when they say they support Sanders"

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Thanks for that, but it’s not quite what I was asking. 

Let me put it this way; we all have a working model of how we think the world operates. I see the Republican Party mainly as the party of the stupid people. That’s not to say everyone who votes republican is stupid, that’s just a generalization of the base at large. The recent recordings coming to light only further add to why I see the world this way because what they show is that even the people at the very top of republican politics agree with me when it comes to the previous administration, so it turns out that so called TDS extends to them as well.

This is exactly what we would see if my view is accurate, those who know better selling BS to those who don’t because they are easy to manipulate.

What I’m asking here is, what is your view of this? It’s easy to just write it off with no further thought by saying you don’t care what they think, but something here has to be true. Is it some kind of conspiracy by the left to put people in power that agree with them even if they pretend not to? Does TDS really persist even amongst the right wing political elites? How would you explain that? Is the Trump base and only this relatively small group the ones who get it and the rest of the country just idiots? Some other explanation?

How does your “model” account for this?
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Thanks for that, but it’s not quite what I was asking. 

Let me put it this way; we all have a working model of how we think the world operates. I see the Republican Party mainly as the party of the stupid people. That’s not to say everyone who votes republican is stupid, that’s just a generalization of the base at large. The recent recordings coming to light only further add to why I see the world this way because what they show is that even the people at the very top of republican politics agree with me when it comes to the previous administration, so it turns out that so called TDS extends to them as well.
See that’s the problem though. You see it as GOP vs Democrats. I see it as Establishment vs everyone else. Another point: calling a party stupid won’t get you anywhere. They may not have the same degree of education a large portion on the left do, but they are still important to the livelihood of the nation. I’ll give you one example: truckers. That’s assuming you were referring to education and not stupid as in lacking logic.

With respect to top GOP officials not liking Trump. I figured that out in 2015 when he was running in the primaries. You think establishment candidate Jeb Bush likes Trump? Of course not. You think Paul Ryan liked Trump? Definitely not. You just have to look at the agenda.

This is exactly what we would see if my view is accurate, those who know better selling BS to those who don’t because they are easy to manipulate.
That’s why I disagree with the whole “I’m the most Trumpy candidate.” I laughed when Josh Mandel, a career establishment official said in Ohio that he was the most Trumpy candidate. He wasn’t even close. But he came in second after Vance. I wholeheartedly agree with you that establishment GOP is full of snakes that are straight out of House of Cards.

What I’m asking here is, what is your view of this? It’s easy to just write it off with no further thought by saying you don’t care what they think, but something here has to be true. Is it some kind of conspiracy by the left to put people in power that agree with them even if they pretend not to?
I think there were two earthquakes in DC. One the night Donald Trump secured the nomination. And second the day Trump won the Presidency. Trump had the people on his side (whether you think that’s good or not). It was a conform or die scenario for the establishment. Donald Trump defeated the 3 most powerful institutions in the United States: the establishment GOP war mongers like Bush, the Democrats, and the media with his victory.

Does TDS really persist even amongst the right wing political elites? How would you explain that? Is the Trump base and only this relatively small group the ones who get it and the rest of the country just idiots? Some other explanation?
All my friends are liberals. I go to a university where a vast majority of people are liberals. I don’t think they’re idiots. I don’t think you or Oromagi are idiots. I just think we fundamentally disagree on the perspective of life, which fuels our political beliefs. TDS does persist in right-wing elites. Best example is Liz Cheney. In Congress she voted practically 100% with Trump. But the moment an opportunity came to uplift her profile, she did. Something her own constituents don’t agree with her on. Another example is Mitt Romney. He’s the epitome of sleazy guy. He lost in 2012, but then comes back and runs for Senate in Utah and spars with Trump and the party to uplift his imagine. Do you think he voted yes on KBJ cause he thought she was qualified and stuff. No. He did it for the political clout. He voted for impeachment for political clout. You probably saw it as “doing the right thing.” I see it as man who is salty that he lost and is jealous of the man sitting in the White House.

How does your “model” account for this?
I think there’s one character trait that’s needed in Washington DC: loyalty. That’s my strongest trait that I personally value in an individual. If I’m doing something wrong, I want you to call me out on it. Not in public, but in private. Tell me your concerns. I don’t want unconditional loyalty. But people like Brian Kemp, who Trump carried to the Governor’s office are ungrateful. Privately talk behind Trump’s back. It loses my complete respect. But that’s just DC.
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You're right.  Please amend that to read  "Therefore, Pie and GP are both obviously lying when they say they support Sanders"
You’re getting a little bit warmer, but still not there yet
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They may not have the same degree of education a large portion on the left do, but they are still important to the livelihood of the nation. 
Of course they are, that’s why this is so concerning. I never suggested these people weren’t important, I’m saying that the combination of ignorance plus being easily manipulable is being taken advantage of full stop by politicians who care nothing about the country but rather their own political careers. As a leftist it is infuriating because I know the political message these people are selling is pure nonsense, and now we have the proof that the vast majority of them understand it as well, even though truth is we knew that already.

The GOP in many ways reminds me of that twilight zone episode with the child who had the power to kill anyone who disobeyed him. So you see the adults pretending to be all for everything he wants meanwhile they’re all looking at each other knowing it’s insane. The politicians are following the children.

You see it as GOP vs Democrats. I see it as Establishment vs everyone else.
“Establishment” is a meaningless term. What matters is not whether the current political climate is established, but rather whether what is established is good. And within our current political norms and expectations you are always going to find some good things and some bad. “Establishment” is just a vapid catch all phrase to mean “I’m against bad”. Well so is everyone, so you haven’t argued a thing, yet this works amazingly well on the political right which goes back to my point about being easily manipulable.

Moreover, it’s been about 6 years since the Trump takeover of the GOP, so Trump is the quintessential establishment republican today. This is even playing out right now ironically in the PA Senate race where the fringe far right candidate is surging to the top in the polls to the point where even Trump is saying she’s too extreme to win in the general. Turns out the “outsider obsession” is now coming back to bite them.

But to the point, we can label it however we want, I’m talking about the political left vs the political right. If you think Trump should still be president after Jan 6th but Biden shouldn’t because of Afghanistan… you live in a different world. Not just from the left but also from most of the right.

TDS does persist in right-wing elites. Best example is Liz Cheney. In Congress she voted practically 100% with Trump. But the moment an opportunity came to uplift her profile, she did. Something her own constituents don’t agree with her on.
This statement is self defeating. Her political career is in the hands of her constituents, and by all accounts it appears likely over because of her position and advocacy against Trump. How is this “lifting her profile”?

loyalty. That’s my strongest trait that I personally value in an individual. If I’m doing something wrong, I want you to call me out on it. Not in public, but in private. Tell me your concerns. I don’t want unconditional loyalty. But people like Brian Kemp, who Trump carried to the Governor’s office are ungrateful. Privately talk behind Trump’s back. It loses my complete respect.
Politics is supposed to be the means by which society discusses, debates, and ultimately resolves its issues. Loyalty has absolutely no place in that. The only people a politician should feel a sense of loyalty towards it’s their constituents.

Trumps demand for personal loyalty is one of his most grotesque character traits as a politician.
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You’re getting a little bit warmer, but still not there yet
I would have preferred Bernie destroying the economy with punitive taxes on producers over the mass printing of money under Biden. 

One of these policies is very easy to correct.
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The only people a politician should feel a sense of loyalty towards it’s their constituents.
Constituents don't get them elected. Lobbyists do.

Biden shouldn’t because of Afghanistan…
Good lord if that was the only thing, he wouldn't today be excluded and shunned by his own party lol.
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This is what I mean when I say I have better things to do. I enjoyed reading your response. There are some things we just fundamentally disagree on like the character trait of loyalty. But this discussion could go on forever (and be insanely long over forum) and I have exams + internship starting on Monday, so imma end it here. If you ever want to discuss over a voice call on the official DART Discord, I would be more than happy to do it then
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character trait of loyalty.
There was a time when you would make a candidate swear to uphold certain policies, and there were consequences for selling out to lobbyists.