Small government

Author: Benjamin

Posts

Total: 65
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 96
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
Somebody recently proposed that we remove the right to vote from people receiving welfare, or in other words regressing back a century or two in terms of political fairness, towards an oligarcic type of republic like in ancient rome. I believe we should be moving in the opposite direction, working to improve society. I am a firm believer in letting ethics be the guiding compass in society, and that includes politics and economics. The US has a lot to work on in that regard.

I propose:
  • Abandoning private prisons and mass incarceration, focus on preventative work like curbing poverty and improving education.
  • Subsidizing green technology and food production with low impact on the enviroment (cuting subsidies to oil companies, weapons manufacturers, etc).
  • Cutting back on military spending. Prioritise saving lives through better healthcare rather than with highly expensive, only slightly improved military tech.
  • Encourage and protect workers unions, prevent union busting, enforce workers rights, even for part-time workers.
  • Ending homelessness. This would only cost 20 billion dollars, and the government would save money in the long run

I support small government. That is, one that smoothly solves large problems from the roots instead of arbitrarily applying large-scale violence to fight symptoms.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,719
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Benjamin
Lovely ideas.

But as I've suggested before.

You've got to either re-educate the world, or re-edit the species.
Benjamin
Benjamin's avatar
Debates: 96
Posts: 827
4
7
10
Benjamin's avatar
Benjamin
4
7
10
-->
@zedvictor4
To fight progressive social change is almost never viewed positively in hindsight, and there is a good reason for that. What conservatives don't realise is that they are most often preserving the worst aspects of society.  This conservation-mindset has led to the defence of feudalism, monarchy, slavery, patriarchy, racism, oppression, imperialism, capitalism and various other institutions which have caused immense harm. My point is not that every conservative defends all of these problems, but that every social change, no matter how positive, will be fought with tooth and nails in the name of conservatism. And thus conservatives serve as a reliable tool for the ruling classes - because they will always defend what is instead of striving for what should be

You've got to either re-educate the world, or re-edit the species.
That is the problem.  Most conservatives throughout history and to this day have no chance of changing their minds in a significant way. There simply is no way to get everyone on board for social change. It is for this very reason that progressives couldn't simply show how their cause was just, they had to fight for justice every step of the way, and they did throughout history. People had to fight for man's right, for poor man's right, for black man's right, for woman's right, for children's right, for worker's right and for freedom and for equality and for rule by law rather than by personal whims of the powerfull. The frontlines have changed a lot since the time of slavery, but there is always battles to be fought and territory to be disputed.



The slogan of "small government" is a simple tactic by todays conservatives. A government reduced to a police force and military will ensure only the rich gets to enjoy economic prosperity and security. The desperate masses, both domestic and abroad, are ruled by an iron fist by the supposedly "small government". Instead of lifting people out of poverty, they shoot them, segregate against them, deny them basic necesities and allow their exploitation by cruel corporations. Some even want to strip them of their right to vote. The "small government" conservatives speak of spends trillions bombing civillians abroad. Why is spending the money fixing real problems worse?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Benjamin
Somebody recently proposed that we remove the right to vote from people receiving welfare, or in other words regressing back a century or two in terms of political fairness, towards an oligarcic type of republic like in ancient rome.
Lol, the government's overreach was huge when Rome was in full swing. In fact, that is what necessitated an oligarchy similar to the one we have now to run such a massive and bloated beaurocracy currently. Literally thousands of government agencies are today run by wealthy lobbyists with no accountability to the people, and the only thing that changes is the PR spokesman every 4 years.

If this seems "progresssive" to you, maybe you should re-read the rise and fall of historical empires. No thinking person would consider repeating the mistakes of history as "progressive"
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
or re-edit the species.
Bingo. You can't gaslight human nature or millions of years of evolutionarily biology.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
in other words regressing back a century or two
it appears Benjamin is NOT in favor of "regressing back a century or two"
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
or re-edit the species.
Bingo. You can't gaslight human nature or millions of years of evolutionarily biology.
funny enough, we are already "domesticating ourselves"

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Benjamin
1) Abandoning private prisons and mass incarceration, focus on preventative work like curbing poverty and improving education.
That hasn't worked out so well in blue states. Crime is at an all time high, and beaurocrat-run prisons are very inefficient, costly, and rife with corruption from the oligarchic permanent government agencies who manage the state prisons with special unfair mistreatment to political enemies of the state.

2) Subsidizing green technology and food production with low impact on the environment (cutting subsidies to oil companies, weapons manufacturers, etc).
We are doing this currently with the force of a massive government rewarding failed technologies that people would never vote for with their hard earned dollars.
The actual price is higher than what is simply posted at the gas pump with the massive economic loss due to the cost of unrealized opportunities that the people most certainly would have chosen to invest in.

3) Cutting back on military spending. Prioritize saving lives through better healthcare rather than with highly expensive, only slightly improved military tech.
Many historians believe the Military to be the utmost primary responsibility of the government along with protecting the equal application of law with that military force. As we "progress" to a visionary future of the failed Roman empire with an ever increasing bloated government, it will be inevitable that America will reach a similar failure where the additional responsibilities of the government managing every aspect of individual human survival from food, to healthcare will cause it to fail completely in the fundamental job of protection. The barbarians simply waltzed into a largely undefended empire towards the end.

4) Encourage and protect workers unions, prevent union busting, enforce workers rights, even for part-time workers.
Encouraging worker monopolies at the expense of independent workers reduces competition, innovation, and fairness. Remember that organized crime thrived in the era of enforced worker monopolies for a reason. It's not "progressive" to return to that era. Most states with enforced worker monopolies have very unfair economies with massive wealth inequality. The sole purpose of a worker union is to reduce the amount of jobs in the market to create a shortage that drives up labor costs and wages. Nobody joins a union expecting a lower wage. Labor monopolies are not fair to independent workers struggling to get into a profession, and are also very costly to the general public.

5) Ending homelessness. This would only cost 20 billion dollars, and the government would save money in the long run.
The government could save even more money by lifting all the restrictions on private home construction and removing that responsibility from the tax payer's burden. But we are set in "progressing" toward the historical failed societies where individuals rely on the competence of a bloated and overtaxed government for basic shelter.


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Benjamin
The "small government" conservatives speak of spends trillions bombing civillians abroad. Why is spending the money fixing real problems worse?
to be fair, BOTH "republicans" and "democrats" have increased military spending at every opportunity

"congress" is simply a game where players compete for subsidies and federal contracts (and legislation to "protect" their donors)

the players who can "bring home the most bacon" are considered "good politicians" who "support their districts

the scope of the federal government is completely out-of-bounds (relative to the united states constitution)

federal taxes are basically like insurance payments

the money goes into a pool

and individuals (states) compete for the pool by making claims

the largest contributors rarely get back as much as they put in

the smallest contributors rarely get back less than they put in

to many, this seems "unfair"

but the alternative is to basically, abolish the insurance company (that way the rich states never have to pay for the poor states)
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Crime is at an all time high,
citation please
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
The barbarians simply waltzed into a largely undefended empire towards the end.
because the roman army was on permanent conquest elsewhere
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
citation please
It would be easier and more convincing to cite the readily available migration statistics away from violent urban centers where criminal rehabilitation conducted by the State has failed spectacularly.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
because the roman army was on permanent conquest elsewhere.
Citation please.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Labor monopolies are not fair to independent workers struggling to get into a profession, and are also very costly to the general public.
TRIANGLE-SHIRTWAIST
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
It would be easier and more convincing to cite the readily available migration statistics away from violent urban centers where criminal rehabilitation conducted by the State has failed spectacularly.
citation please
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
TRIANGLE-SHIRTWAIST
Labor monopolies did not eliminate Triangle-shirtwaist. The evolution of Tort law did.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
citation please
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
because the roman army was on permanent conquest elsewhere.
Citation please.
Overexpansion and military overspending

At its height, the Roman Empire stretched from the Atlantic Ocean all the way to the Euphrates River in the Middle East, but its grandeur may have also been its downfall. With such a vast territory to govern, the empire faced an administrative and logistical nightmare. Even with their excellent road systems, the Romans were unable to communicate quickly or effectively enough to manage their holdings. Rome struggled to marshal enough troops and resources to defend its frontiers from local rebellions and outside attacks, and by the second century the Emperor Hadrian was forced to build his famous wall in Britain just to keep the enemy at bay. As more and more funds were funneled into the military upkeep of the empire, technological advancement slowed and Rome’s civil infrastructure fell into disrepair. [**]
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
from your "source"

"Crime rates made a significant contribution to migration away from many central cities during the 1970's."
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
because the roman army was on permanent conquest elsewhere
At that time, defense for Rome was provided by Visigoths and not an army comprised of Romans. The State failed to provide for basic defense.

 but its grandeur may have also been its downfall. With such a vast territory to govern, the empire faced an administrative and logistical nightmare.
Thank you for proving  my point. 


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Labor monopolies did not eliminate Triangle-shirtwaist. The evolution of Tort law did.
good thing sweatshops and de facto slave labor don't exist anywhere on planet earth today
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
because the roman army was on permanent conquest elsewhere
At that time, defense for Rome was provided by Visigoths and not an army comprised of Romans. The State failed to provide for basic defense.

 but its grandeur may have also been its downfall. With such a vast territory to govern, the empire faced an administrative and logistical nightmare.
Thank you for proving  my point. 
what "point" did you make ?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
good thing sweatshops and de facto slave labor don't exist anywhere on planet earth today
It does exist in states where labor monopolies have removed the right to work from independent workers with the full force of the government.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
It does exist in states where labor monopolies have removed the right to work from independent workers with the full force of the government.
what specific example do you believe supports your hypothesis ?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Try building a house in California with independent workers. Controlled labor is slave labor.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Try building a house in California with independent workers. Controlled labor is slave labor.
labor that is paid a fair wage and has the option to quit and work somewhere else is not "slave labor"
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Labor that is paid a fair wage and has the option to quit and work somewhere else is not "slave labor"
It is when the "fair wage" is set by the government backed labor monopolies. There are no options to "work elsewhere" in states with no right to work laws.

Again, try and build a house with independent workers in California and see exactly what happens. Then explain to me exactly how that is "fair" for either the independent worker or the person that just wants an affordable home.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,484
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
labor unions are not the primary source of government corruption

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,790
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Sure they are, Worker monopolies support industry monopolies, They go hand in hand.