Tired Pro-Gun Talking Points

Author: Double_R

Posts

Total: 190
Topic's author
#1
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,236
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
Watching republicans scramble to try and make sense of their positions on gun laws over the past few days has been both head sctratching and infuriating. I just wanted to list some of the played out classics along with a response, can we all agree that these need to be retired ASAP?

Democrats are trying to politicize this tragedy

The entire point of government is to be the means by which society solves its problems. Mass shootings in America is a problem. Democrats are not politicizing this, this is a political issue.

Now is not the time to talk about gun laws

Easily the most disingenuous of them all. If not in the aftermath of a mass shooting, the very thing gun control laws are mostly aimed at deterring, then when the hell is the right time to talk about this? When have republicans ever came out and said “ok, let’s talk about this issue now”. Never happened.

Second, I do not recall anyone on September 12th 2001 saying not was not the time to talk about a response to the terrorist attacks. They know this is ridiculous.

Third, every single republicans making this argument has no problem talking about illegal immigration every time an illegal immigrant kills someone. Imagine if this shooter was illegal how the political right would be losing their mind talking about the border and how democrats are responsible for this.

The problem is mental health

Setting aside the notion that there is only one problem here to address as if we could not try multiple solutions at once, the US does not have a mental health issue significantly worse than any other developed nation. We do have more guns however. Way more.

Also, has any republican ever put forward a mental health bill aimed at addressing gun violence? I haven’t seen it.

But it’s even worse then that, because every time democrats propose making healthcare of any kind more accessible republicans are against it, so this might actually be the most disingenuous.

We should be arming teachers

While nothing technically wrong with this, it’s clearly the most absurd. We have already seen countless examples where security and police officers fail to properly engage mass shooters, but we expect teachers are going to get the job done?

This is the talking point which shows just how insane the Republican Party is. Rather than to address the fact that any would-be mass shooter can easily get their hands on military grade weaponry, they would rather turn our schools into military bases. This is where the GOP’s priorities are right now. It’s absolutely sick.

Retire these talking points. 
#2
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,005
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Double_R
The problem is mental health

Setting aside the notion that there is only one problem here to address as if we could not try multiple solutions at once, the US does not have a mental health issue significantly worse than any other developed nation. We do have more guns however. Way more.

Also, has any republican ever put forward a mental health bill aimed at addressing gun violence? I haven’t seen it.

But it’s even worse then that, because every time democrats propose making healthcare of any kind more accessible republicans are against it, so this might actually be the most disingenuous.
Well it is about mental health because mentally healthy people don’t do this. Our institutions really do have a lot to answer for when time and time again these suspects are “known to police.” I would agree though that republicans (as usual) are totally out of their depth and have no solution because how do you solve “mental health”. I would probably support some kind of red flag law or some kind of expanded background check because it does seem like our law enforcement is really good at identifying people who are likely to do this sort of thing and then they just aren’t empowered to do anything about it. 

It wasn’t long ago that kids brought guns to school to go on hunting or plinking trips afterward and this didn’t happen. The root of the problem IS some kind of social/mental phenomena similar to the prevalence of serial killers from the 1960s-1990s. A terrorist in Nice, France killed like 80 people with a truck so a smart and dedicated terrorist will find a way. That said it must be admitted that Europe shows us pretty clearly that a high percentage of these people are surprisingly stupid and low agency to the point that if they were unable to get a gun instead of just spending a week or two trying to get one they’ll just go with a knife or something immediately and do less damage. I wouldn’t support banning outright lots of different types of guns when the vast vast vast majority (like 99.99%) are owned by law abiding owners and when the government has made it unbelievably clear that they won’t defend you when it comes to it (as evidenced by the disgusting cowardice by the police in this case in particular. A bunch of gun owning parents probably would’ve taken care of the situation more quickly if they were allowed to)…but even some minor road blocks may make more difference than pro-gun absolutists say

I also would push back against the “do something” mentality. Our brains and instincts are not wired for the situation we find ourselves in today. In the ancestral environment if you see or hear of a bunch of kids being slaughtered that’s highly representative of what you are likely to encounter in your own life because we would only meet a few thousand people over our entire lifetimes, tops. Now we can hear about tragedies thousands of miles away and even though they’re incredibly, unbelievably  unlikely to actually happen to us our brains just can’t figure that out. There is some common sense gun stuff like red flag laws or even waiting periods I could probably get behind but what I’m really talking about here is attempts to make elementary schools more like prisons and airports in response to something like this. Systemically terrifying the  children en masse and making them miserable is a bigger threat to society in the long term than isolated tragedies 
#3
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
Second, I do not recall anyone on September 12th 2001 saying not was not the time to talk about a response to the terrorist attacks. They know this is ridiculous.
100% THIS
#4
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Double_R
the US does not have a mental health issue significantly worse than any other developed nation. We do have more guns however. Way more.
i'm not certain there is a clear correlation between gun ownership and school shootings

Percent of households with firearms:

1. USA
2. FINLAND
3. BOSNIA
4. SWITZERLAND
5. NORWAY
6. ICELAND
7. GREECE
8. PORTUGAL
9. NEW ZEALAND
10. FRANCE



Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings:

  1. Norway — 1.888
  2. Serbia — 0.381
  3. France — 0.347
  4. Macedonia — 0.337
  5. Albania — 0.206
  6. Slovakia — 0.185
  7. Switzerland — 0.142
  8. Finland — 0.132
  9. Belgium — 0.128
  10. Czech Republic — 0.12
#5
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,109
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Your data is from a widely publicized study originally released in 2015, the pro-gun nonprofit Crime Prevention Research Center (CPRC) compared the annual number of mass shooting deaths per million people in the U.S. to that of Canada and several European countries from 2009 to 2015. The result? Norway led the world with 1.88 deaths per million, followed by Serbia, France, and Macedonia. Where did the U.S. rank? 11th place.
As eye-opening as the CRPC study was, many statisticians believe the reason the results seem so counterintuitive is that they’re incorrect. One of the more detailed analyses appeared on the fact-checking website snopes.com and concluded that the CRPC report used “inappropriate statistical methods” which led to misleading results.
According to the snopes analysis, one of those inappropriate methods was the leaving out of the many European countries that had not experienced a single mass shooting between 2009-2015. This data would not have changed the position of the U.S. on the list, but its absence could lead a reader to believe—incorrectly—that the U.S. experienced fewer mass shooting fatalities per capita than all but a handful of countries in Europe. A more important oversight, again according to snopes, was the report's use of average deaths per capita instead of a more stable metric. Thanks to the smaller populations of most European countries, individual events in those countries had statistically oversized influence and warped the results. For example, Norway’s world-leading annual rate was due to a single devastating 2011 event, in which far-right extremist Anders Behring Breivik gunned down 69 people at a summer camp on the island of Utøya. Norway had zero mass shootings in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015.
The snopes analysis goes on to suggest that instead of computing the average, or mean mass shooting deaths, a better method would be to compute the median, or typical, number of deaths. The median is considered by many statisticians to be better at preventing individual outlier events (such as the Norway massacre) from skewing results, which leads to a more accurate day-to-day impression and country-to-country comparison. Using the CPRC’s own data and more precise per-year population data from World Bank (the original study used only 2015 population data) to solve for the median, the snopes analysis results in a notably different list. Using the median analysis, the United States is the only country examined that shows a propensity for mass shootings. The data itself supports this interpretation, as the United States endured mass shooting events all seven years, but the other countries all experienced mass shootings during only one or two years. Thus, in a typical year, most countries experience zero mass shooting deaths, while the US experiences at least a few.
#6
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
The entire point of government is to be the means by which society solves its problems.
WTF? Absolutely not.
#7
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
The entire point of government is to be the means by which society solves its problems.
WTF? Absolutely not.
what do you believe is the main function of "government" ?
#8
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@FLRW
ence could lead a reader to believe—incorrectly—that the U.S. experienced fewer mass shooting fatalities per capita than all but a handful of countries in Europe. A more important oversight, again according to snopes, was the report's use of average deaths per capita instead of a more stable metric. Thanks to the smaller populations of most Europe
phenomenal analysis

however,

it does not answer the following questions

(1) what is the statistical risk of death to a citizen of the USA from a mass public shooting ?

(2) what is the statistical risk of death to citizens of other countries from a mass public shooting ?

(3) does this statistical risk correlate with percentage of individuals who own guns ?
#9
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@Double_R
While nothing technically wrong with this, it’s clearly the most absurd. We have already seen countless examples where security and police officers fail to properly engage mass shooters, but we expect teachers are going to get the job done?

Because this point is brought up as the only thing to implement, not just one thing among many. Thank you for the insight that this line of arguing is meant to stand on its own or that the presence of firearms has not worked to deter crime.
#10
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,893
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
Democrats don't even care about actual gun control because they banned stop and frisk.

It's all a bunch of lies for votes as usual.

#11
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,893
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
The entire point of government is to be the means by which society solves its problems.
And this is why we have an entire society that has no individuals to step up and take care of mentally ill people before they become a problem.

Guy at work looks and acts like a likely psychotic killer? Not my problem. Government's problem.

#12
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,893
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
 the government has made it unbelievably clear that they won’t defend you when it comes to it (as evidenced by the disgusting cowardice by the police in this case in particular.
Ultimately, the only way to end these situations is with someone else with a gun, either the police or someone else. The alternative is to allow the maniac to expend all his ammunition in the hopes of turning himself in afterward.
#13
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Guy at work looks and acts like a likely psychotic killer? Not my problem. Government's problem.
are you in favor of "red flag" laws ?
#14
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Greyparrot
the only way to end these situations is with someone else with a gun
are you sure that's "the only way" ?
#15
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,109
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@3RU7AL
 Let’s see what happens to the rankings when we strip away the outlier events by using the median, and get a better picture of the typical consistency of mass shooting deaths from 2009 to 2015.

Average (mean) Annual Mass Shooting Death Rate, 2009-2015 (per million people) 
1. Norway — 1.99
2. Serbia — 0.38
3. Macedonia — 0.34
4. France — 0.34
5. Albania — 0.2
6. Slovakia — 0.19
7. Switzerland — 0.14
8. Finland — 0.13
9. Belgium — 0.13
10. Czech Republic — 0.12

Typical (median) Annual Mass Shooting Death Rate, 2009-2015 (per million people)
1. USA — 0.058
2. Albania — 0
3. Austria — 0
4. Belgium — 0
5. Czech Republic — 0
6. Finland — 0
7. France — 0
8. Germany — 0
9. Italy — 0
10. Macedonia — 0
#16
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@FLRW
Typical (median) Annual Mass Shooting Death Rate, 2009-2015 (per million people)

1. USA — 0.058
2. Albania — 0
3. Austria — 0
4. Belgium — 0
5. Czech Republic — 0
6. Finland — 0
7. France — 0
8. Germany — 0
9. Italy — 0
10. Macedonia — 0
fantastic

now how does that compare to other mortality risks ?
#17
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,109
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@3RU7AL

The leading causes of death for the teenage population remained constant throughout the period 1999–2006: Accidents (unintentional injuries) (48 percent of deaths), homicide (13 percent), suicide (11 percent), cancer (6 percent), and heart disease (3 percent). Motor vehicle accident accounted for almost three quarters (73 percent) of all deaths from unintentional injury .

#18
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@FLRW
Motor vehicle accident accounted for almost three quarters (73 percent) of all deaths from unintentional injury .
perhaps we should raise the age requirement for driving
#19
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@FLRW
i mean, if people are going to call themselves "pro-life" they really should be aware of this stuff
#20
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,568
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@thett3
it's 100% a societal thing. This country produces psychopaths. 
#21
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,259
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Shooting the shooter once they have started shooting.

Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, as it were.

Fine...But you've already got a pile of dead kids and no horse.

Far better to have shut the door and not sold two assault rifles to an 18 year old youth in the first place.
#22
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
What brilliant insight!
Shooting a shooter only means the shooter killed people already, because we never see examples that say otherwise!
#23
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,259
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheMorningsStar
What's your point.

Other than U.S. citizens have a tendency to fire guns at each other. 

The reality is, if neither  Man A nor Woman B had a gun, no one would have got shot.
#24
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,282
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@zedvictor4
The reality is, if neither  Man A nor Woman B had a gun, no one would have got shot.
are we trying to reduce total mortality ?

or do we only care about gun related mortality ?
#25
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
You are a genius! Let's make it so that the law abiding citizens don't have guns! After all, we all know that while criminals might shoot each other with guns that they will follow the laws around how to acquire them! That we we can change the numbers! Upwards of 2.5 million defensive uses of guns each year can go down to zero and the 500,000-600,000 hospitalizations can... go down as well?

Wait... if a criminal already doesn't give a damn about the law and will go around shooting people... Gasp! Maybe they won't actually care about the laws around how to acquire guns either! Impossible!

But no, no, we can simply look at the past decade in certain nations to see how things will play out, right? It isn't like technology ever advances, don't be ridiculous! My 3D printed guns don't matter and improvements in 3D printing technologies (as well as increased affordability) won't ever play a role in things.
#26
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,259
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@3RU7AL
The current topic is guns....And the availability and indiscriminate use of.

So I make contributory comments relative to that subject.


Population management is a separate issue......One which I would also be happy to comment on within an appropriate context.
#27
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,259
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheMorningsStar
Your first sentence doesn't make sense.

And your second sentence, just emphasises the extent of the gun problem in the U.S.

And you're currently hung upon 3D printing.


Hmmmmmmm.......Not much else one can say about that.



Other than, the upside of technological advancement in any field, tends to also come with a downside.

#28
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,893
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, as it were.
More like it takes a guy on a horse to stop a horse.
#29
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,905
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
The only way to stop bad guys with guns is good kids with guns
#30
TheMorningsStar
TheMorningsStar's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 398
2
3
7
TheMorningsStar's avatar
TheMorningsStar
2
3
7
-->
@zedvictor4
And you're currently hung upon 3D printing.

Hmmmmmmm.......Not much else one can say about that.

Other than, the upside of technological advancement in any field, tends to also come with a downside.
You're right, it is entirely irrelevant. Let's not take technological advances into consideration when determining policies. Gun bans it is! Who cares that such things will be meaningless in the near future and will take too long to actually be effective, it will make us feel better, and us feeling better is more important than doing anything that actually helps!