It is possible for people to be both free and sinless.

Author: Bones

Posts

Total: 30
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
Careful theists...

P1. All people have free will. 
P2. People in heaven do not sin.  
C1. People can have free will (by virtue of being people) and not sin (by virtue of the existence of heaven). 
P3. God created all People. 
C2. God created the People in C1. 
C3. God has created people who have free will and do not sin.
C4. God can create people who have free will and do not sin. 
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
If you, given the right to do everything, do only the correct things or as how "god" outlines it for you, then yes.

But we should not strive too much for it, albeit possible. No book should be fixed to dictate your life, nor any singular thought. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,068
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Bones
Firstly you need to prove that people have free will.

Well actually, firstly best to conclusively establish what you mean by GOD.

And then secondly or thirdly, when you have conclusively established what you mean by GOD, you will then need to prove that what you have conclusively established to be GOD, is not a load of baloney.

And then fourth, it would also be prudent to prove that sin is more than just a variable concept.


And when you say all people in the C1, are you referring to a Citroen C1?.....A popular small four seater....Five at a squeeze.
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Bones
This really should say monotheist or judeo-christians. Sin/ free will are not universal theist concepts. 
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,555
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
One of the central ideas of the Bible is that freedom is actually freedom from the slavery of sin, not the ability to don whatever you want
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Well considering Christ said the minute you think something you've committed a sin I don't see how that's possible.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
I'm not referring  to freedom as in the "freedom from sin", I'm referring to freedom of will, and making the argument that God created the world with a whole lot more unnecessary suffering. 
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,555
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Bones
I don't give a fuck. This type of religious debate bores me
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
uh-oh, the forum got to another one. LOL. 
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,555
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Witch.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Then why did you comment in the forum. 
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,555
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Bones
why not

Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Moron.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Because you "don't give a fuck" maybe? 
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,256
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Dr.Franklin
 This type of religious debate bores me.

What "type" of religious debate doesn't bore you , Doc? 
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Stephen
Ones which don't challenge the integrity of his religion
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,256
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Bones
Yet claim to want serious debate .

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,068
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Dr.Franklin
Did you mean to say "don" Doc?

Is the Christian Bible big on dress code?

Begorrah.

And too much angst these days Doc....What's troubling you?

 
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@PGA2.0
@Tradesecret
@Conservallectual
@imdancin
Thoughts? This is quite the theistic knockdown argument.
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,893
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Bones
Maybe there’s no mixed clothing, seafood, etc in heaven. Bet you didn’t think of that.

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,068
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Bones
All a/theistic arguments tend to be knockdown.

Though it's a whole lot easier to knock down blind faith with logic.

T. GOD

A. GOD who?
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
Another rendition:

P1. God is that who can institute any possible world 
P2. A world in which free will exists and no sins occur is possible (evidenced by heaven and the existence of God himself, who is presumably sinless and free) is possible
C1 God could have instituted that world 

Ergo he didn’t because he doesn’t exist
imdancin
imdancin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 41
0
1
5
imdancin's avatar
imdancin
0
1
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Everyone lives by faith...everyone. Evan if the faith is only in themselves.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 925
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@imdancin
As you are a Christian and do everything to glorify him, what do you have to say about this detrimental flaw in his existence. Why did he allow sin? 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,068
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@imdancin
Well therein lies a debate.

We can propose variable interpretations of "faith".

So let's just start by comparing acceptance of the supernatural, with acceptance of known fact only....We can apply faith to both....But this  doesn't make GODS real. But does give me high level of assurance, that the Sun will rise in the morning.
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,940
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Let me guess.

You have used your (  Being born again )  card already? 

Luckily.  
(The Insinerator 5000 )  is coming to a store near you. 

For less then two cups of coffee.  Thats  $ 10 . 99*
One can remove all sins in under two mins.  In a booth found at ya local mall. 
The insinerator 5000. Booth.  
 step 1 ( Insert coin ) 
step 2   select  your specific christian denomination from the 20,000 and growing availability .
then  jump on  in and sit down and simply view the 1 min 29 sec answer five questions .
The holy water spray mist sprays three times. 
Then get your  5 christs body flavored waffers. 
A funny picture background of you having ya sins removed 
And you get a dated written  100% Guaranteed sin free certificate.  Heaven acknowledges the( in sin 5000 )  

Thank God for the   ( Insinerator 5000  booths )  

* prices subject to change.  
* recive 5 waffers, one picture and some writings written specifically for you. 

Alllllll that for under eleven bux. 



Good game.
Good game. 



Lit
Lit's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 58
0
1
4
Lit's avatar
Lit
0
1
4
Perhaps it is possible that God could create sinless, free-willed people; but to create sinless, free image bearers of himself without deceiving them with the illusion of having free will and freely not sinning against him would require them to live by trust.
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Lit
If Christ was sinless, did he have free will? Could he really have refused to die on the cross? 
Lit
Lit's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 58
0
1
4
Lit's avatar
Lit
0
1
4
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Yes. Sin isn't only about conduct in speech and deed, thoughts and attitudes, but also about living in accordance with the will of God. Christ could be sinless in all his conduct, but if he had refused to do the will of God, he wouldn't be sinless. If he had called down the legion of angels to help him escape crucifixion, that would have been outside of the will of God for him. His free will was more free than ours is currently, being unhindered by a sin nature, being able to trust God more freely.

77 days later

Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,736
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Lit
If Christ was sinless, did he have free will? Could he really have refused to die on the cross? 
Jesus did have free will. He said so at his trial.
Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

But like all the bad decisions Jesus made in his life he chose not to call his legion of angels.

Jesus was confused by the action of the Jews who wanted to stone him just as much as he was confused by the Jews who were eager to crucify him even though Pilate found no crime in Jesus.

John 10:32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

Pilate returns to the crowd waiting outside the palace. Jesus apparently is at his side when he tells the chief priests and those with them: “I find no crime in this man.” Angered by that decision, the crowd insists: “He stirs up the people by teaching throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee even to here.”—Luke 23:4, 5.

So we can conclude  Jesus had free will and believed he was sinless. But the Jews disagreed and shouted.
Luke 23:21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”