asking why suffering exists is like asking why darkness exists

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05.31.2022 07:17PM

is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes. it can help us make progress to end suffering. we are co creators in that sense. it can give people the perspective to appreciate no suffering. as jesus said, the man wasn't born with health problems because of something him or his parents did, but to give glory to God when he's one day disease free.

also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists. that's just the way it is. can we have just light? i dont think that is possible in our reality. same way, suffering may need to exist in this reality too.

of course, a person can just insist that if it's possible for suffering not to exist but does, then it isn't necessary. a person could rationally cling to that principle, but they have to admit that they might be wrong if everything i say is true, and they need to admit that the alternative view that i present is completely realistic. What if God and heaven exist, and the reality is how i present it? then the skeptic is just clinging to philosophy that has no basis in reality. the words and thoughts, the pointless ramblings, of mere men.

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05.31.2022 07:20PM

to be clear, i respect the argument of the problem of suffering. i just dont think it's enough to insist on being a skeptic.

Polytheist-Witch

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Polytheist-Witch

05.31.2022 08:25PM

Well this is one of those topics that tends to apply to monotheism because in polytheist myths even the gods suffer because they are subject to Fate. They lose children, some suffer injuries, some suffer illnesses and some die. So there are instances where suffering and the gods can exist together. Having one doesn't cancel the other out.

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05.31.2022 08:32PM

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@Polytheist-Witch

interesting, i never considered it from the polytheist perspective. makes sense though when ya consider the history of god's and their purposes.

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05.31.2022 08:35PM

i guess traditional christian theology is possible too. we are living in the fall of man, and the consequence is suffering. i never got into all that sorta jibe though

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05.31.2022 09:38PM

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@n8nrgim

is like asking why darkness exists

there is no "darkness"

even deep space is full of all kinds of radiation

they just don't happen to be the tiny fraction of wavelengths that our human eye happens to be able to perceive

Reece101

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Reece101

05.31.2022 11:33PM

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@n8nrgim

On a basic level maybe we naturally evolved to perceive pain so that we would be motivated to avoid harm.

I don’t know, this is just part of a little theory I have.

Bones

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Bones

05.31.2022 11:50PM

Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will.

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06.01.2022 12:03AM

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@Bones

i dont disagree, but there could still be a purpose or reason for suffering to exist.

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#10

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06.01.2022 12:09AM

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@Bones

but it might also be possible that suffering is necessary, for our free will to be purified with the strife that humans encounter. we humans can't know the answer. but, if we are believers, it makes more sense to assume there's a reason for things.

#11

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06.01.2022 05:04AM

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@n8nrgim

@Poly

As far as we know there is no such thing as a GOD/S with purposes.....That just remains a wild/romantic, assumption/fancy.

Suffering is simply the inevitability and consequent appreciation of physiological stress and decline.

"The pointless ramblings of mere men" (and women), comes up with all sorts of guff.

Though within it's own human context there is always some sort of point to what we do.

Composing guff is a good mental exercise........As is composing counter-guff.

#12

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06.01.2022 05:09AM

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@Bones

Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will.

Or:

Suffering is, and free will is the assumption of a programmed but sentient organism.

Guff or counter-guff.......Take your pick.

#13

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06.01.2022 05:10AM

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@Reece101

Nice little theory.

#14

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06.01.2022 08:46AM

We should rather try to define, what exactly is suffering?

If there is no suffering, then everything is because it means everything is of the same degree of satisfaction. That is what I think.

#15

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06.01.2022 11:45AM

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@Bones

Suffering is needless and unnecessary for the integrity of free will.

please explain

#16

SkepticalOne

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SkepticalOne

06.01.2022 03:55PM

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@n8nrgim

also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists. that's just the way it is. can we have just light? i dont think that is possible in our reality. same way, suffering may need to exist in this reality too.

I've never been particularly strong advocate for the problem of suffering, but I recognize the argument as valid. I mean, if an all powerful, knowing, and benevolent creator is responsible for existence, then suffering is difficult to explain. Darkness...not so much. Darkness, on its own, is benign. Suffering is literally harm.

#17

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06.01.2022 04:39PM

By Ellen Post:

When I was in grad school at the University of Maryland in the 1990s, there was a lovely young woman from the Philippines in my department working on a Masters degree. On a spring break one year she and some friends drove to New York for a short vacation. They were in their car in Chinatown when a stray bullet in a gang fight went through their windshield and killed this young woman.
There are those who attribute such events to God’s will, who believe that God has a purpose for everything that happens. Nothing in life is random; everything happens for a reason, for those folks.
I am not one of them. To me, that young woman’s tragic death was just a freak random event. If she hadn’t been in that exact place at that exact time, she’d be alive today.
While people getting hit by stray bullets is relatively rare (our current mass shooting problem notwithstanding), randomness in life is not. In fact, if you asked me how much I think random chance affects your life, my short answer would be, “A lot.”

#18

Castin

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Castin

06.01.2022 04:42PM

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@n8nrgim

There is no rational moral justification for the totality of suffering on Earth. I have never found a theodicy that really held up to scrutiny.

Let's look at your theodicies.

is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes. it can help us make progress to end suffering.

The purpose of suffering is to end suffering? That seems circular to me, from a divine creator's perspective.

More to the point, this argument only justifies the minimum amount of suffering necessary to help us end suffering, and the suffering we observe far exceeds that amount. We observe a ridiculously gratuitous amount of suffering in the world -- disease, rape, starvation, war, pedophilia, sex trafficking, depression, murder, harassment, abuse, natural disaster, poverty, suicide... I could go on and on. If I removed just one of these from the list, the world would be a better place, and there would still be enough suffering to "help us make progress to end suffering."

Something else I don't really like about this argument is that it only seems to acknowledge constructive suffering, not destructive suffering. If the purpose of suffering is constructive, why does destructive suffering exist? And in such needless and overwhelming amounts?

it can give people the perspective to appreciate no suffering.

This reminds me of the contrast theodicy -- the argument that evil is necessary to make us understand and appreciate good. Again, though, this only justifies the minimum amount of suffering necessary to make us appreciate the absence of suffering, and again, the amount of suffering we observe in the world far exceeds that amount. Would I really be unable to appreciate what's good in life if every other evil in the world still existed except, say, genocide?

also, asking why we still have suffering is like asking why darkness exists.

I almost never ask why suffering exists unless someone has asked me to believe in a loving and all-powerful God.

Otherwise, my position is that suffering simply is. Its existence is no one's fault.

#19

Double_R

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Double_R

06.01.2022 10:26PM

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@n8nrgim

is it possible for there to be a purpose for suffering? yes.

Wrong question. Whether it's possible is irrelevant.

Is suffering necessary for it's supposed good purpose to be fulfilled? Answer: Not if you're an all powerful god.

#20

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06.02.2022 02:44AM

Suffering is just designated to the less satisfying side of things. Everyone has strength, but the people with less-than average strength is called weak. Every color in reality has light(as perfect darkness is unrealistic), but the more black ones are called dark.

It is all relative. The less satisfying things as they are are basically suffering since we expect the mean or median number of satisfaction from each event on average. Being whipped by a prison guard 24/7 is less satisfying than what the average person expects, so is being in chronic pain for years straight, that is why we call those suffering.

#21

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06.02.2022 05:23PM

Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.

79 days later

#22

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08.20.2022 06:47PM

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@FLRW

Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.

Th3 Bible tells us God found what he created very good.

Genesis 1:3 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Evolution actually improves the fitness of the population.

Suffering and pain are not natural to creation or evolution.

Even pain killers do more harm than end pain as it develops an addiction to both.

#23

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08.20.2022 07:31PM

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@Shila

As I just said in a recent post, it is estimated that 109 billion people have lived and died over the course of 192,000 years. Humans are born to die.

#24

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08.20.2022 07:36PM

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@Shila

Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.
Th3 Bible tells us God found what he created very good.
Genesis 1:3 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

So? Also according to the bible we were created in his image".

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

#25

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08.20.2022 09:06PM

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@Stephen

Suffering is just a product of Poor Design.

The Bible tells us God found what he created very good.

Genesis 1:3 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

So? Also according to the bible we were created in his image".

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

Hard to argue with scriptures when they are correctly quoted.

#26

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08.20.2022 09:24PM

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@Shila

So? Also according to the bible we were created in his image".

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

Hard to argue with scriptures when they are correctly quoted.

Indeed therefore man, the bible says, was created as good as god... or as poorly designed.

#27

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