The Second Amendment, Reinvigorated

Author: coal

Posts

Total: 34
coal
coal's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 1,950
3
3
9
coal's avatar
coal
3
3
9
In its New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Inc. v. Bruen decision yesterday, Supreme Court has struck down the State of New York's "may issue" firearm license regime. 

  • The State of New York required a showing of "special need for self-protection distinguishable from that of the general community" (emphasis added), to keep and bear arms for general self defense.  
    • That requirement was unconstitutional for several reasons; chief among them, that no other constitutional right requires any such showing. 
    • There may circumstances in which the right to keep and bear arms may be subject to limited restraint.  But historical practice contemporaneous with the Second Amendment's adoption does not comport.   
  • In reaching this decision,  the Supreme Court further rejected the Circuit Courts of Appeals' two-step method of analysis for constitutionality, post-Heller and McDonald
    • The first step was acceptable, as it requires "establish[ing] that the challenged law regulates activity falling outside the scope of the right as originally understood." This is consistent with both Heller and McDonald.  
    • The second step was not, as it required judges to consider "how close the law comes to the core of the Second Amendment right and the severity of the law’s burden on that right." Any constitutional right subject to the whims of future judicial interpretation is no such thing.  The Second Amendment clearly says that the right of the people to keep and bear arms is a constitutional right that shall not be infringed.  Where a state imposes a "may issue" licensure requirement to exercise one's right to keep and bear arms for general self defense purposes, it infringes upon Second Amendment rights.  
Let freedom ring.  
 



Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
Why is there even a need for unlicensed firearms in America? I am not outright proposing that all guns shall be banned from civilians, but it would seem like the logical conclusion that with such destructive weapons obviously a license is needed.

Not only that, I propose that guns should be less afforable. Many people owning guns is dangerous. Banning guns cause outrage, but a raise in the price doesn't do as much outrage as it does.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
I firmly believe that at this point, licensing is more important than "freedom". That "freedom" was caused by years of WAR where people needed to defend themselves from rivals from England. Now, the need is mostly gone as the amount of terrorism at this point inside the US should be able to be handled by the police force within. Why do we need to make something so destructive unlicensed for the sake of a document more than 200 years old? We need licenses for cars, for owning a cannon, for selling masks, for experimenting with Uranium metal, but not for firearms? Oh bah, that sounds sure like a British ton of bollocks!
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@coal
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,008
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
Need a license to catch a fish, but apparently carrying a weapon of war, or a concealed handgun on a subway, no need for any sort of license. 
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@ludofl3x
Yep, agree. If we are not allowing licenses on guns, then remove those on fishing, driving, etc. Or just establish licenses on all. Protecting an old principle for the sake of protecting it is hilarious and ironic.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@ludofl3x
@Intelligence_06
Need a license to catch a fish, but apparently carrying a weapon of war, or a concealed handgun on a subway, no need for any sort of license. 
One is a right, the other is a privilege. I wonder which is which?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
Self-defense is the ultimate expression of individual liberty from tyranny.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Greyparrot
Because your trusty revolver's gonna save you from military grade drones, machine guns, tanks and next level weaponry that you don't even know exists yet because it's not been revealed.

The people will truly 'win' a war against the military and police force if a tyrant took over because of their gun, that's very clearly what the guns are used for and good for...

I wish I could let that sit there and be obvious sarcasm but this seems to be the genuine belief of enough Americans that I need to add I AM BEING SARCASTIC!
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
@Greyparrot
Because your trusty revolver's gonna save you from military grade drones, machine guns, tanks and next level weaponry that you don't even know exists yet because it's not been revealed.

The people will truly 'win' a war against the military if a tyrant took over because of their gun, that's very clearly what the guns are used for and good for...

I wish I could let that sit there and be obvious sarcasm but this seems to be the genuine belief of enough Americans that I need to add I AM BEING SARCASTIC!
I wonder how the Taliban and NVA/VietCong were successful.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
The Taliban's enemies in Afghanistan recently weren't the US military and police force. It was won because the only enemy left was the Afghanistani military.

Vietnam was won by making Americans themselves oppose the war.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
The thing is either you allow literal 'freedom fighters' as in organised (t****ist) militias to operate and oppose the government or you drop the act.

The second amendment is so shady in its wording, it's basically allowing a group that want to coup to justify it as a given right.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Their enemies weren't the US military and police force.
You mean the entire West

Vietnam was won by making Americans themselves oppose the war.
And this matters how? American military families that support the government would go through the same thing. Even during the American Civil War, sentiment for the war was dying in North. Victories in places like Atlanta were the reason Lincoln was re-elected. If George McClellan became the President, he would’ve strived for peace.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
The second amendment is so shady in its wording, it's basically allowing a group that want to coup to justify it as a given right.
No it doesn’t lol.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
Their enemies weren't the US military and police force.
You mean the entire West
Not really... Barely any weapons and assistance was given by the end this 'resistance' was more 'we oppose your way of life' not 'we are actively stopping you militaristically'.

As for how the Taliban won, you can thank Trump for that deal. Not sure what's going on with you as a Trump fan asking that question... The answer is Trump let them win.

Vietnam was won by making Americans themselves oppose the war.
And this matters how? American military families that support the government would go through the same thing. Even during the American Civil War, sentiment for the war was dying in North. Victories in places like Atlanta were the reason Lincoln was re-elected. If George McClellan became the President, he would’ve strived for peace.
It matters because it proves that the core way to stop tyranny is backing the first amendment not the second, though the first amendment is ridiculous in how wide its range is, it basically allows literal verbal and madia-based bullying. It is clear to me that people are more worried about defending against criminals who are able to access firearms, the issue is that they can easily access them, focus on stopping that.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
The second amendment is so shady in its wording, it's basically allowing a group that want to coup to justify it as a given right.
No it doesn’t lol.
I would not dare challenge you to an official debate on that as my interpretation is so taboo it isn't something I want to go into.

I have thought about many ways to interpret the second amendment and the only one that truly is loyal to its wording and the way it pits the armed militia against the government is to realise it is defending coups.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
Because your trusty revolver's gonna save you from military grade drones, machine guns, tanks and next level weaponry that you don't even know exists yet because it's not been revealed.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
Did you know guns owned by private individuals were banned in Iraq before Saddam came to power? Might have been 1 reason why it was so easy for American troops to occupy it and kill around 1 million of them.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@RationalMadman
 "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." 
Former President Jefferson.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

So go shoot some Supreme Court Judges you good ole American folk.


Everyone's their own freedom fighter,

And therefore  should be free to fight for their own idea of freedom.

Or would you deny them this freedom?
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Not really... Barely any weapons and assistance was given by the end this 'resistance' was more 'we oppose your way of life' not 'we are actively stopping you militaristically'.
That’s what the argument would be though. Imagine if Biden comes out and says we’re going to take your guns. That’s a right and way of live for millions of Americans. There would be funding from outside groups.

As for how the Taliban won, you can thank Trump for that deal. Not sure what's going on with you as a Trump fan asking that question... The answer is Trump let them win.
Nice strawman. This is irrelevant to the issue. The fact is the Taliban stopped the best military force in the world under 3 President.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@ILikePie5
Protecting the right for the sake of protecting it is stupid. It is not like without guns, America ceases to be itself anymore. If it actually is so, that just means the US needs a reform LONG ago, not now, because no society should run itself on guns. No large-scale society like the US has this freedom over guns, and it does not decrease, if not outright increases crime rate.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
Protecting the right for the sake of protecting it is stupid.
Tell that to the Jews in Nazi Germany. If you don’t fight to protect your rights, you lose them. 

It is not like without guns, America ceases to be itself anymore.
How long did it take Hitler to confiscate guns and kill all the Jews. You can’t predict the future, neither can I. Maybe you’re right. But I sure as hell can say the 2nd Amendment has don’t it’s job for 231 years.

If it actually is so, that just means the US needs a reform LONG ago, not now, because no society should run itself on guns. No large-scale society like the US has this freedom over guns, and it does not decrease, if not outright increases crime rate.
I think the statistics was 42k gun deaths in the USA. That’s 0.127% of the population killed by guns. And that’s just general. About half of those deaths are suicide, which is a mental health issue. Another quarter is gang violence, which is still going to happen with or without guns. Just because Canada doesn’t do it (look at them losing their rights) doesn’t mean it is bad. To the contrary.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@ILikePie5
Tell that to the Jews in Nazi Germany. If you don’t fight to protect your rights, you lose them. 
There are other usages to the rights of the Jews other than them being a right because humans live and need to have enough properties and freedoms to keep living. On the other hand, the usage and need of publicly-owned unlicensed firearms wanes and causes more problems each day while solving less and less. It will be obsolete one day.

How long did it take Hitler to confiscate guns and kill all the Jews. You can’t predict the future, neither can I. Maybe you’re right. But I sure as hell can say the 2nd Amendment has don’t it’s job for 231 years.
At this point, you have commited reductio ad hitlerium to people who are anti-gun. The Chinese emperor system has done its job for like over 2000 years, but was ultimately disposed of and replaced with democratic liberalism(or something like that) in 1911 and socialism in 1949, which in turn fits the time better whether or not you like it or not. Maybe it is a appeal to tradition, even. Tell me why unlicensed guns are still useful uniquely in 2022. Tell me. Don't @ me with the "it was like this in the past" bollocks, we are talking about the present and I think it should be changed. America won't dissolve if guns require licenses.

I think the statistics was 42k gun deaths in the USA. That’s 0.127% of the population killed by guns. And that’s just general. About half of those deaths are suicide, which is a mental health issue. Another quarter is gang violence, which is still going to happen with or without guns. Just because Canada doesn’t do it (look at them losing their rights) doesn’t mean it is bad. To the contrary.
Even you know guns are substitutes. There is nothing unreplaceable about guns I know of and if anything, they should be restricted as they clearly do cause destruction. We are not talking about why guns should keep existing, it arguably should, but you have yet to give any reason why licenses on it are wrong any other than the reason that it disobeys a 200+ year old piece of paper.

ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,747
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
On the other hand, the usage and need of publicly-owned unlicensed firearms wanes and causes more problems each day while solving less and less. It will be obsolete one day.
False. The existence of America has a nation and the protection of other rights can be directly attributed to the 2nd Amendment, which pretty much no other country has.

At this point, you have commited reductio ad hitlerium to people who are anti-gun. The Chinese emperor system has done its job for like over 2000 years, but was ultimately disposed of and replaced with democratic liberalism(or something like that) in 1911 and socialism in 1949, which in turn fits the time better whether or not you like it or not. Maybe it is a appeal to tradition, even.
I’m pointing out historical events where the loss of the right to keep and bear arms has directly led to the loss of human life. Russia and China are further examples of this.

Tell me why unlicensed guns are still useful uniquely in 2022. Tell me. Don't @ me with the "it was like this in the past" bollocks, we are talking about the present and I think it should be changed. America won't dissolve if guns require licenses.
Guns save anywhere from 300k to 1.2 million lives. Requiring a license to exercise a fundamental right is absurd. Next thing you know, you require a license to obtain an attorney if you cannot afford one. I don’t need to demonstrate “need” to exercise a fundamental god-given right.

Even you know guns are substitutes.
Why does this matter. Mental health is mental health. If I wanted to commit suicide, I could think of a 100 different ways to do it. Even under your “licensing” I could just go get a gun and  commit suicide lol. Your plan does nothing.

There is nothing unreplaceable about guns I know of and if anything, they should be restricted as they clearly do cause destruction.
Destruction that apparently affects 0.025% of the nation while thousands of lives, rapes, assaults are prevented.

We are not talking about why guns should keep existing, it arguably should, but you have yet to give any reason why licenses on it are wrong any other than the reason that it disobeys a 200+ year old piece of paper.
No, it defies a god-given right, and I don’t need to demonstrate a need to exercise a right. Licensing places an undue burden on Americans in exercise their right. Not to mention it opens up an avenue for future confiscation.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Greyparrot
Jefferson encouraging a coup
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Most of the founding fathers were rational madmen.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Greyparrot
And we are far from infallible.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,278
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@coal
Let freedom ring
The most basic rule of freedom is that the freedom to swing your arms ends at the next person’s nose. One’s right to “self defense” by carrying a gun on them at all times places everyone around that person at elevated risk because their lives are now subject to the individuals level of responsibility, judgement, and aim. 

But yeah, go freedom.
coal
coal's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 1,950
3
3
9
coal's avatar
coal
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
The most basic rule of freedom is that the freedom to swing your arms ends at the next person’s nose.
Actually, that's a legally, potentially criminally and at least civilly actionable intentional tort.  You cannot put someone in imminent apprehension of a battery, without running afoul of someone else's rights.  Most states call that "assault."  Realize the scenario you're articulating. 

You're talking about actually causing someone to be in fear that you might cause them some kind of physical pain.  Non-aggression principle notwithstanding, one's freedom --- here, in the sense of bodily autonomy --- ends where other's rights begin.  It turns out others have the right to be free from assault (or the imminent apprehension of any battery) as they move through the world and conduct their lives, in general.  

One’s right to “self defense” by carrying a gun on them at all times places everyone around that person at elevated risk because their lives are now subject to the individuals level of responsibility, judgement, and aim. 
There is no analogy to be drawn between engaging in an act of criminally and/or civilly actionable violation of another's right to bodily integrity and the individual constitutional right to bear arms, for personal self defense or any other.   In the first instance, simply by carrying a firearm, you are not placing someone else at "elevated risk," of anything.  Rather, you are improving their safety by reducing the probability of armed confrontation.  I understand you're less about hard data and more about practicalities.  So let me give you this set of practical scenarios to think over.  

  • Scenario 1:  Woman is on the train, riding home after a long day of work.  A gang member approaches her, attempts to steal her personal effects and proceeds to sexually assault her in the process.  She is unarmed at all relevant times, unable to defend herself and is a victim in all possible ways this plays out.  
    • Modification A to Scenario 1:  Same facts as above, but instead of the woman being totally unarmed she has pepper spray.  She deploys it, but only hits one of the gang members.  Others beat her within inches of her life, take the pepper spray from her use it against her.  She almost dropped it, in the process of retrieving it from her purse anyway.
    • Modification B to Scenario 1:  Same  facts as above, but instead of pepper spray she has a gun.  She isn't well trained but has the wherewithal to draw it and fire off one shot.  She misses, potentially causing property damage to condo on the other side of the train; but the attackers flee to another car. 
  • Scenario 2:  Your son is walking home from work, after he got off the train to make his way back to his apartment.  The neighborhood is familiar and he's lived there for many years.  But tonight, a drug dealer who is moving in on territory at the direction of a Mexican cartel confuses him for a rival gang member.  Your son looks like Barack Obama, aged 22.  Not exactly "rival gang member" material, but the identity is still mistaken.  The drug dealer shoots and kills him in the mishap.  A totally random occurrence.  After your son tries to clear up his identity.
    • Modification A to Scenario 2:  Same facts as above, but instead of your son being totally unarmed, he has a knife.  Maybe.  He attempts to withdraw it, but remembered that because he was stopped and frisked one day he lost it.  The drug dealer shoots and kills your son.
    • Modification B to Scenario:  Same facts as above, but instead of New York City's laws being utterly idiotic, your son sees the threat draws his gun and shoots to kill first.  He comes home.  The drug dealer does not.  
Tell me which of the above situations are less worse (not so much better, just less worse).  Obviously no one wants any of these situations.  And random acts of arbitrary violence may not befall most of us, especially in the suburbs.  But the idea that in the cities, we can just pass laws and criminals will all of a sudden disarm is nonsensical.  I know that you know who has guns and who does not.  I know that you know they still have them, despite the laws saying otherwise. Would you rather yourself, your family or your friends be prepared?  Or risk the alternative.  I am fully aware of all the accident statistics, suicide statistics, violence statistics and the like.  They matter from a sociological perspective, but not a moral one.  Morally, in this country we stand as citizens.  There is an old saying from Colt, that goes along the lines of "God created men all equal.  Colt made them equal."  

But yeah, go freedom.
Absolutely.