Why are you a Protestant?

Author: triangle.128k ,

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  • triangle.128k
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    Protestantism is an umorganized religion that has easily been able to devolve and distort itself under modernism.

    Catholicism has stayed true to doctrine and century old teachings. It's resisted modernism to a greater extent.


    What makes you follow the former?

  • RationalMadman
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    Wrong. Neither has stayed true to the doctrine but Catholics are the off-shoot that actively opposes staying true to it if it contradicts the interpretation that a high ranking bishop takes on the matter (the Pope is merely the highest ranking Bishop at the time).

    Christianity worships Lucifer. Jesus was Lucifer. Lucifer was not Satan. Satan is the god in the OT. I will preach this again and again until the world hears me.
  • Mopac
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    --> @triangle.128k
    The Orthodox Catholic Church is the true church.

    The Roman Catholics have made many innovations in the faith, not the least of which is altering the Nicene Creed which the whole church agreed on. There is a reason why the bishop of Rome was excommunicated from the rest of the church.


    What makes more sense, that 4 Patriarchs rebelled against 1 or that 1 Patriarch left the 4? The Roman Church for hundreds of years tried to make rulings outside of its jurisdiction, and was rebuked by the other Patriarchs. The Roman Church uses Latin, the other churches use Greek. What language is the New Testament written in?


    The Pope of Rome is not the king over Christendom, Jesus Christ is, and that is why they were EXCOMMUNICATED.
  • Mopac
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Gnosticism is a heresy that was denounced by the earlier church. What you are expressing is the gnostic position.



  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Mopac
    Do you know Jesus is the way to God?
    Do you  know God?
    Both are gnostic positions.

  • Mopac
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    --> @RationalMadman
    You are correct in a semantic sense to say to know something is to be gnostic.

    However, the Orthodox faith is not faith in knowledge, but faith in The Truth. Faith in The Truth does not forsake knowledge, but as the scriptures read...


    "keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith."

    Gnosis =/= epignosis


    The faith is not gnosticism, gnosticism is an error, and as the church fathers rightly discerned, the gnostics didn't really agree on much. They leaned on their own understanding, not The Word of God, which is Truth. The same can be seen in the neo-gnostics of today, who have this in common... their faith is in knowledge(so called at least), and not THE TRUTH.


    Someone with a gnostic mindset will find it difficult to understand the difference, because to them truth is knowledge. So it would be natural for the gnostic to interpret what I say as simply another knowledge to have faith in, knowledge that I claim is true knowledge.

    If that is what you understand me to be saying, I will say ahead of time that this isn't what I'm saying.




  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Mopac
    I do not think you are less Gnostic for saying that God is truth itself than me saying that Jesus is/was Lucifer. On the other hand, I think you're more Gnostic because of the depth of 'I know this' that you go to with what you say in that regard.

    What you know is impossible to not be what you consider to be knowledge. If you know the truth, that is actually knowledge to you.
  • Mopac
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    I know that my faith is in The Truth, not what I know.

    I know what I believe. I can tell the difference between The Uncreated and creation.

    This is epignosis, not gnosis.


    Knowledge of The Truth =/= The Truth.

    If your faith is in knowledge of the truth, you are still falling short, and sin is in you. You believe lies are true.

    Let God be true, and every man a liar.



  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Mopac

    Please accept this challenge.


  • Mopac
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    I don't understand that the debate is what I am talking about.
  • Mopac
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Because I know The Truth, I know I do not know The Truth. My faith is in The Truth, not the knowledge I have of The Truth.

    This really isn't something that can be taught, especially if your god is knowledge. It will be foolishness to you.


  • RationalMadman
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    Challenge me to a debate on this with the title worded how you like and you being Pro.
  • Mopac
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    Faith in The Truth is not the same as Faith in knowledge or even knowledge of the truth.
    No amount of sophistry and rhetoric is going to overthrow this reality, and neither would a million votes to the contrary.

    As I predicted, you can't tell the difference because you are a gnostic.



  • RationalMadman
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    What is the point you are getting at? How did you ascertain 'truth'?
  • Mopac
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    I don't have to know The Truth to know how to love The Truth.

    If I love The Truth, I don't lie to myself. I must be sincere. If I discover that I have been honestly wrong, I repent.

    It's a relationship. That is where the religion comes in. Abide in The Truth. 

    And that is a living faith, it isn't something you realize, then keep in the back of your mind and forget. It's a way of life.


    And if you have any deep understanding of what is true, how off the mark you are should be a real manifest thing. There is a certain humility that should naturally come with that realization.

    I speak boldly, not of my own merits, but of God Almighty who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe.


  • RationalMadman
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    I don't have to know The Truth to know how to love The Truth.

    Wrong, you do have to know the truth to love the truth.
  • Mopac
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    I certainly know The Truth.

    But I don't know how many germs are swimming in my nose.


    Because I know The Truth, I know the difference between faith in knowledge of The Truth and The Truth itself.

    Since I am surprised, since I learn things, since I don't know how many germs are swimming in my nose, I know that I don't know everything. Since I don't know everything, I don't know God. But I know this from knowing God.

    And this is really not an easy thing to communicate, especially to someone who makes knowledge their idol before God.


    The Truth =/= Knowledge 

    Even true knowledge is not the truth. In fact, true knowledge is to know this even.

    True knowledge is epignosis. 

    And how do you communicate this knowledge beyond knowledge?

    It is as absurd as communicating the uncreated through the medium of creation.

    And that is why we have The Word of God, Jesus Christ here in the flesh, the Trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The mysteries of this true knowledge is communicated in these doctrines, to those who have a mind to understand.







  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Mopac
    I certainly know The Truth

    Even true knowledge is not the truth. In fact, true knowledge is to know this even.

    And that is why we have The Word of God, Jesus Christ here in the flesh, the Trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

    I see, I see.
  • Mopac
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    --> @triangle.128k

    Kind of a big deal.




  • Swagnarok
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    --> @triangle.128k
    1. Because the central claim of Roman Catholicism, that it is the "one true church", makes no sense.

    A. There is little to no evidence in scripture to suggest that Jesus wanted a centralized ecclesiastical hierarchy over the global church. Two key early church leaders, Paul and Barnabus, parted ways after a dispute and never saw each other again as far as the Bible records, suggesting that the early church fathers (that is, those close enough to the life of Jesus that they were recorded in the NT) saw little need to coordinate their efforts aside from:

    B. The Church Council in Jerusalem. The only time in the NT that a church council was mentioned. Jerusalem has a greater claim to being the seat of Christendom than anywhere else. The Bible does not mention Peter being Bishop of Rome, and in any case he was not the only one of the twelve apostles (nor necessarily the most important to the early church). Why Rome should get that illustrious position instead of Jerusalem just seems illogical.

    C. With this in mind, the Eastern Orthodox Church seems to have an equally valid claim to headship over the global church as the Roman Catholics do. Their churches are directly descended from the ministry of the 12 apostles just as those in Rome are (if anything, the Eastern Orthodox churches are older, being geographically closer to Iudaea). And yet Eastern Orthodoxy decries the Pope as a heretic.

    D. On a practical level, a Christendom wholly united under any unquestioned earthly leader just seems incredibly dangerous. At any given time Pope Francis seems to be just one step away from saying "There's nothing wrong with homosexuality", and in the distant past there were Popes who engaged in homosexual pederastic relationships. One man would have the power to introduce heretical teachings, and Christians everywhere would accept it as true just because the Pope said it. Even if you had 10,000 years of good and decent Popes who would never do that and who are wise enough to avoid any kind of heresy, all it takes is one guy. Literally. Just one guy. And then the Church that Christ founded would be lost.
  • Swagnarok
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    The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions have developed certain, er, *techniques* for reaching a deeper spiritual state and getting closer to God. I think Evangelical Protestants could stand to benefit from studying these and trying them out. Rejecting Catholic and Orthodox headship need not mean rejecting the accumulated wisdom of 2,000 years of Catholic and Orthodox asceticism, nor the rich intellectual traditions that have stemmed from both.
  • Swagnarok
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    For example, somebody with the Orthodox church devised this technique long ago:

    1. Shut yourself in a dark closet, alone with God.
    2. Clear your thoughts. Have as empty a mind as possible.
    3. Keep repeating the following prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Either mentally, in whispers, or out loud.

    I actually kind of want to do this, though I know that with the way I'm living my life right now it would be inappropriate.
  • Mopac
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    Evangelical Christianity is certainly missing something. It is more than simply "asceticism" and "intellectual tradition". They only have part of the faith, it is incomplete.

    It isn't just forsaking 2000 years of wisdom, it is forsaking the entire church.


    They were right to break away from the Pope in Rome. The Orthodox Church is not structured in such a way. We recognize Jesus Christ as King, not the Bishop of Rome.


    It's a good time to come home though, especially for Americans, because the Orthodox Church is very small and not really even fully formed in America. There are what, 3 to 6 million Orthodox at most in America. Too many of these protestant or evangelical churches preach heresies from the pulpit. The spirit of truth isn't there. They would benefit from an education rooted in church tradition.



  • Mopac
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    --> @Swagnarok
    For example, somebody with the Orthodox church devised this technique long ago:

    1. Shut yourself in a dark closet, alone with God.
    2. Clear your thoughts. Have as empty a mind as possible.
    3. Keep repeating the following prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Either mentally, in whispers, or out loud.

    I actually kind of want to do this, though I know that with the way I'm living my life right now it would be inappropriate.



    This is hesychasm, and it is actually a practice that goes back to the desert fathers who lived around 250 AD. The spirit of it is that you are focused on God. That prayer is one way of doing it, though that particular method didn't crop up until maybe 800 years later. It is a good practice.

    One of the many things evangelical Christianity misses out on are the saints. The Orthodox has a calendar where every day has saints to learn up on. We remember those who came before, because it is important. 
  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    So everything you say is a lie.
    Provide something uncreated.