Incel short for involuntary celibate

Author: CoolApe

Posts

Total: 26
CoolApe
CoolApe's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 81
0
1
6
CoolApe's avatar
CoolApe
0
1
6
A study from Institute For Family Studies suggests main cause of involuntary celibacy is a decline in marriage.

This hard-core incel group is indeed growing as a share of the male population. The NSFG’s sample size, over 1,000 never-married men between the ages of 22 and 35 with sufficient questionnaire completion to estimate sexual behavior and reasons for virginity if they have not had sex, is large enough to be decently confident of these results.

But the 68% increase from 2002 to 2015 in the incel share of the male, never-married, 22-35-year-old population is mostly due to a decline in marriage, not never-married men having less sex. Rising involuntary virginity among never-marrieds accounts for around 27 percentage points of the increase, with the other 41 percentage points coming from a declining married share of the population. It may also be that some of these “incels” are males who were formerly, or would formerly have been, religious, and while they no longer abstain for religious reasons, nonetheless they may continue to hold some degree of religious norms regarding “high standards” for a first sexual encounter.

In other words, incels are right to see themselves as part of a novel and fairly extreme change in our society’s sexual behavior, with a growing share of sexless young men. But the big change isn’t a growing share of alpha males hoarding all the sex, nor women suddenly becoming far more choosey amid rising promiscuity; rather, it’s just that marriage is being delayed, which means that rates of marriage-status-controlled celibacy that aren’t historically extremely  unusual result in very unusual rates of total population-wide sexlessness.

A few reasons for declines in marriage.

- decline in religiosity among people
- divorce rates and financial risk
- decline in economic opportunities 

Rise in sexless men caused from people delaying marriage and people going to school

But whatever the direct effect of education on never-married men, the primary cause of the rise in sexlessness is simply the increasing delay of marriage. The delay in marriage has numerous causes, of course, but probably the most powerful driver of marital timing also relates to education. Men and women are much less likely to get married while attending school, and across times and countries, an increase in the years of schooling is associated with later age of marriage, though more-educated people do tend to get married eventually. Thus, as more and more schooling becomes necessary for a good middle-class job, marriage gets pushed later and later, leaving more young people (men and women!) companionless and lonely.

In general, people have obfuscated the term involuntary celibate with misogynist. While there is an overlap, they do not mean the same thing.
Societal factors drive involuntary celibacy. It not just a bunch of men that have hateful preconceptions of women.

This thread is probably banal to most you and doesn't apply.

Frankly, I don't have time to respond to people's comments, but I would enjoy to listen to what you have to say on the topic.

cited 



oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
I'd encourage some real skepticism regarding any "study" published by the IFS.  This is not peer-reviewed social science or statistically valid poll data- this is data of, by, and for people paid by churches to encourage more marriages in the US.  Obviously, marriages represent an important business to many US churches and they are highly motivated to create negative data about the decline in marriage.  These same guys had a much published study in 2014 saying that gay couples were harmful to children.  When Putin started quoting it to justify laws in Russia, scientists started pointing out how invalid the study's methods were and the IFS was compelled to admit there wasn't much science to their methods.  Think of this as motivated blog science- a study showing that coffee is good for you paid for by Starbucks, etc.

  • I'm skeptical of data right on the surface. A study that says 0% of married women 22-35  had no sex in the past year just doesn't pass the smell test for me.  I'm sort of willing to believe that men 22-35 who go a year without sex has increased 6% in 8 years just based on the rise of the internet, video game culture, free porn, etc during that period.  There's a whole lot of social interactions that have seen similar declines for similar reasons.  But I'm skeptical about why the number of women who have gone a year without sex would 1) be lower than the number of men and 2) would remain static while the number of sexless men increased.  
  • I read this study as an advertisement designed by paid marriage promoters to sell marriage as an idea  to men who haven't gotten laid in a while- wow! 0% of married women don't have sex?  I've got to try that!

Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
Marriage is the oldest institution in the world. From the studies presented that institution is in trouble.
Sex outside marriage is as old as the institution of marriage. Hope that is not threatened too.
CoolApe
CoolApe's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 81
0
1
6
CoolApe's avatar
CoolApe
0
1
6
-->
@oromagi
Internet does seem to a big factor in social dysfunction.

Millennials and Gen Zers also face more economic insecurity compared to older generations. They have less opportunities to make it with their careers and move away from home early on in life. I'd say that probably contributes to more sexless men and women. 
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@CoolApe
--> @oromagi
Internet does seem to a big factor in social dysfunction.

Millennials and Gen Zers also face more economic insecurity compared to older generations. They have less opportunities to make it with their careers and move away from home early on in life. I'd say that probably contributes to more sexless men and women. 
The demand for pornography on the internet  is growing.

Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Marriage doesn't really have anything to do with religion. I have no idea what a reduction in religion would have to do with marriage.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
Polytheist _Witch: Marriage doesn't really have anything to do with religion. I have no idea what a reduction in religion would have to do with marriage
Religion actually supports marriage as an institution. Muslims are allowed 4 wives.
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
I don't care what you think I was not talking to you. Just because religion supports marriage doesn't mean marriage is a religious institution, jackass.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 564
Posts: 19,922
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@CoolApe
This has barely anything at all to do with marriage but it is indeed due to shifts in culture and promiscuity.

Because of shifts in culture and social media where the women are finding it much easier to get tinder hookups from the hottest guy in town no-strings-attached and then, via social networking or even as I said tinder itself to alter their profile more serious and use photo touch-ups etc as well as popularity to win over high value males, we've ended up with a society where the standards for women are such that one really hot and well-to-do guy can get 20 chicks in 3 months, fucking some of them twice for a laugh and that's literally him playing the 'game' on easy mode.

Some will read this and call me a misogynist, I wouldn't type it with my real identity attached. I am not a misogynist to notice trends in psychology and how women work and neither are the sociologists backing my theory. I am not a black pill backer, I'm a red pill backer; I don't think an ugly man with low social skills has no hope, I think it's about strategy and working your ass off to get it.

What is 'it'?

The thing is you made this OP about incels but changed it to why men are staying single.

Single vs not laid aren't the same thing anymore.

Women are valuing males much harsher than before while men are valuing females, sexually especially, just the same as before. It is females and their reaction to the shift that has caused this shift.

As I say, nowadays, one man can sexually satisfy many women and maintain a good reputation if he plays the texting game smart and just ghosts the toxic ones rather than arm them with any ammo to 'cancel' him with.

Nothing changed on the part of men, what changed is that unlike before, women are demanding more from the men to even get a fucking seat at the table without them ignoring you to text the next guy who turns up. 

If you think I'm ignorant, try the dating game. I've met women who literally admit it to me and say 'why not'. I am not a fucking misogynist, I can sexually please women very well and get along with them in daily life (though I'm rather introverted), it's not about frustration at sex, it's about observing the environment. Those that don't adapt will perish, the jungle's just more social media driven than real-life contact driven now.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
Polytheist _Witch: I don't care what you think I was not talking to you. Just because religion supports marriage doesn't mean marriage is a religious institution, jackass.

Poll shows rise in belief that marriage is a religious institution

A new survey shows an increase in likely U.S. voters who see marriage as a religious institution, with a majority now holding this view.

Rasmussen Reports' Dec. 22 national survey of 1,000 U.S. likely voters found that a majority – 53 percent of respondents – said marriage is a religious institution. This is an increase from 48 percent in October. Another 40 percent saw marriage as a civil institution, down from 45 percent in October.

About 77 percent of respondents said they are married or have been at some point in their lives. This correlated to their views of the institution.

About 57 percent of ever-married respondents said marriage is a religious institution, while the never-married tended to see it as a civil institution.

A large majority of Republicans and a small majority of unaffiliated voters said marriage is a religious institution, while a small majority of Democrats said it is civil in nature. Men and respondents over 40 were more likely to say marriage is religious.

Respondents also gave their views on the relationship between marriage and having children.

About 73 percent of respondents said it is important or very important to be married before having children. Another 25 percent said that marriage is not a precondition for parenthood, an increase from 20 percent in a previous survey.

Ever-married respondents were far more likely to stress the importance of marriage before children than the unmarried, Rasmussen Reports said.

The survey suggests marriage is highly valued in the U.S.

Seventy-nine percent of respondents said marriage is somewhat or very important to society, with 55 percent ranking it very important.

The survey found that 45 percent of respondents opposed "gay marriage," while 42 percent favored it.

In October, the pollster's survey found voters evenly split on the question at 44 percent each. However, the apparent changes are still within the survey's margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percent.

Views about the nature of marriage appear to correlate to views on "gay marriage." About 71 percent of those who said marriage is a religious institution oppose "gay marriage," while 75 percent of those who said it is a civil institution favor marriage redefinition.

Ehyeh
Ehyeh's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 318
3
4
9
Ehyeh's avatar
Ehyeh
3
4
9
What does being able to "sexually please women very well" have to do with anything else you said RM? it sounds so out of place. Is being able to sexually please women "very well" meant to make you less misogynistic or something?
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Ehyeh
RM: Nothing changed on the part of men, what changed is that unlike before, women are demanding more from the men to even get a fucking seat at the table without them ignoring you to text the next guy who turns up.

If you think I'm ignorant, try the dating game. I've met women who literally admit it to me and say 'why not'. I am not a fucking misogynist, I can sexually please women very well and get along with them in daily life (though I'm rather introverted), it's not about frustration at sex, it's about observing the environment. Those that don't adapt will perish, the jungle's just more social media driven than real-life contact driven now.
What does being able to "sexually please women very well" have to do with anything else you said RM? it sounds so out of place. Is being able to sexually please women "very well" meant to make you less misogynistic or something?

RM responds: Those that don't adapt will perish, the jungle's just more social media driven than real-life contact driven now.

Ehyeh
Ehyeh's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 318
3
4
9
Ehyeh's avatar
Ehyeh
3
4
9
-->
@Shila
Don't you find it weird that RM's mind wished to use his sexual pleasing skills as his example of "adapting in the jungle" when he could have said literally anything else? He didn't even have to bring himself into the discussion and what he's good at, especially not with something so weird.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Ehyeh
--> @Shila
Don't you find it weird that RM's mind wished to use his sexual pleasing skills as his example of "adapting in the jungle" when he could have said literally anything else? He didn't even have to bring himself into the discussion and what he's good at, especially not with something so weird.
His name RM is saying the quiet part out loud.

rbelivb
rbelivb's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 205
1
2
5
rbelivb's avatar
rbelivb
1
2
5
-->
@RationalMadman
@CoolApe
I often notice that the effect of dating apps is very visually oriented. People are inside because of COVID, and a lot of "incels" probably don't socialize so much anyway, so the dating apps would be their main opportunity. What would it look like to have a dating app that is more text focused? For example many people use Twitter as a dating app to meet people. I think this kind of thing will become more common as the use of social media proliferates and people become disillusioned with dating apps which obviously don't work for most men. In general the mainstream social media are almost engineered to reward narcissism and superficial thinking.
Ehyeh
Ehyeh's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 318
3
4
9
Ehyeh's avatar
Ehyeh
3
4
9
-->
@rbelivb
Dating apps are only getting more popular. I believe over 50% of relationships are formed online in the modern day and it is only skyrocketing. Nothing is going to change. I imagine the incel epidemic is going to get worse and worse for the time being. The internet is largely to blame for it.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
Today people have less to say but more to show. That makes it’s all the more entertaining.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,255
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Ehyeh
What's more interesting, is who is and isn't breeding relative to age related fecundity.




Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
Yeah, it's the internet's fault, lol

16 days later

PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@CoolApe
A few reasons for declines in marriage.

- decline in religiosity among people
- divorce rates and financial risk
- decline in economic opportunities 



I would disagree with this. Society was largely centered around combating the hypergamy of women for most of history. 

Once women got the right to vote this changed the sexual dynamics to favor women and their sexual strategies. Women unconsciously used their political power to reclaim the ability to be hypergamous by creating a safety net for themselves subsidized by men so they could avoid commitment and not be destitute. They did this by doing the following.

1. Child support and alimony so they could fuck around on their husbands without the normal natural consequences of doing so.

2. Welfare state so they could be sluts and have children without being tied down to  aan to help with child support.

The above allows women to largely share the top 20% of men. The most attractive and charming of males. I'm a society where they couldn't do this, we would see many forced to settle down with what we now refer to as INCELs.

The problem that most people don't see coming, but is very obvious when you look at other societies with largely single young males with no sexual outlet (polygamous societies usually) is an enormous uptick in mass violence, riots and general criminality.

Women are not bad for pursuing their preferred sexual strategy, but it will have devastating effects on society 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,255
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Factory farming might be an option for a while.

But I think that eventually something will decide that actually billions of humans are completely unnecessary.
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@zedvictor4
As for the transhumanism stuff, I find more likely scenarios than the elimination of humans.

1. Sufficiently advanced AI just launches itself into space and leaves us to maybe get energy off of the sun and mine other planets for resources.

2. Kurzwelian merger, where we basically become the machines 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,255
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Sounds good.

I would say that we are the machines of material evolution.
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@CoolApe
In the Pendragon series The Reality Bug - Wikipedia,
There was a society that pretty much abandoned the real world, as they found the virtual world more enjoyable.

Houses, roads, falling to disrepair, as I recall.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,255
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
I would suggest that there a lot of younger people who already spend a lot of their time in a technological virtual world.

We do this stuff, and it becomes the norm, and we carry on as if nothing has changed.

Evolutionary inevitability probably.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
The younger generation are better informed because they use the technology whereas the older generation only speculated about it.