The case for the Historical Jesus

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10.17.2022 03:27PM

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@Stephen

Stephen you are a pathological liar.

Nope . You offered him an invitation. The brother only mentioned him as part of a related post

My thread is open to all and everyone

And so it should be.
Until they are politely asked to leave.

No one has been asked to leave on this thread. Everyone needs a chance to say where they stand with the Historical Jesus.

Topic's author

#182

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10.17.2022 03:30PM

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@Stephen

--> @Tradesecret
Ethan gets more mentions than the rest of you together -

Yes,
for all the wrong reasons. Public Moderation Log (debateart.com)

The link says Ethang was banned for sexual harassment.

Is the Reverend defending his actions?

Topic's author

#183

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10.17.2022 04:13PM

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@Sidewalker

I was going to present the Biblical Jesus following my case for the Historical Jesus.

Instead I would like to start with what Sidewalker posted because he makes all the relevant points that serves as an introduction to the Biblical Jesus.

Sidewalker posted:

He came out of relative obscurity, but the way he lived and died profoundly changed the world.

Ancient history is necessarily a record of those who witnessed historical events, and almost everything we know about Jesus comes from the Gospels, which were put into their current form slowly, over a period of about three hundred years, a history that was shaped by the Christian experience. The historical Jesus had a movement following after him, after his death this movement grew exponentially and it was that movement that produced the Gospels. The Gospels are a history of the manner in which Jesus was experienced, both during his life, and after His death, so there are two voices speaking to us from the past, that of Jesus, and that of His followers. The Gospels are not simply about what happened to Jesus, they are also about what happened to Jesus’ followers, who experienced His continuing presence as a living reality long after his death. The historical Jesus didn’t found the Christian church by his ministry, the church came into being after His death, it is the resurrection that is the starting point of Christian religion.

Consequently, you cannot look to the historical for Jesus answers about what followed his death, Jesus was a Jew, he had no opinion about Christianity because Christianity did not exist during his lifetime. Consequently, understanding the social and political context of the historical Jesus in conjunction with an honest reading of the Gospels does appear to challenge many of the cherished and comforting beliefs held by Christians today.

An honest reading of what he actually said and did indicates that he was a Jewish rabbi who walked in the tradition of the prophets, was a teacher, a healer and wonderworker, a man that challenged prevailing systems of purity while associating with the marginal elements of society. There is no historical evidence that he ever intended to establish a new set of religious dogmas or found a new religion. The Jesus of the New Testament is not always omnipotent, or omniscient, and He does not appear to think of himself as divine, He rarely spoke of himself and His message was not about believing in Him.

His teaching "astonished" those who heard him. The things he did and said caused his contemporaries to think of him in completely new dimensions. There was something in this life that caused those who knew it best to reach the conclusion that it was divine in nature. Historically speaking, there is a boatload of contention about whether or not he actually rose from the grave but no one can reasonably doubt that his spirit jumped dramatically to life after his death.

It is certainly not my intent to contend that what was implicit in His life and was made explicit through theological discourse four hundred years later is not an image of truth; It is not to say that He was not God and Savior. It is only to say that these divisive things do not matter to me and I do not believe they are more important than his message.

Jesus almost never spoke about the detached metaphysical constructs so many focus on; apparently those kinds of intellectual disputes just weren't important to him and I choose to believe this was because He understood how these matters could digress into divisive contrasts and disunity. His words, his actions, and his life had nothing whatsoever to do with divisiveness and disunity.

Many have rejected the life and teachings of this man primarily because of the disputes over dogma and because of the unlikely historical accuracy of many of the doctrines held by the various Christian churches today. To many, the prevalence of sometimes vehement disputation and boastful contrasts in His name directly conflict with their understanding of what the Man and His teachings represented: consequently many have understandably turned away, throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

An argument can certainly be made that the historical vision that is emerging provides a great advantage for those who have turned away as well as for those of completely different faiths. By allowing those who cannot embrace his tremendous impact because of disputations regarding his human or divine status, this historical vision can allow many people to concentrate on what he actually said and did. Maybe the emerging historical vision of Christ could eliminate the petty pursuits and trifling quarrels and through fellowship with the internal life, cut across political and ecclesiastical boundaries by penetrating beneath the external surface of all of mankind’s divisive religious doctrines.

Seeing how the historical Jesus reacted to the violence, corruption, and political and religious oppression he faced may help us all to see how the "Christ force" might act in us today and with what passion and unambiguous focus we may challenge the rather similar circumstances we face. Paying attention not to disputes about his divine status but to what he actually said and did could allow us to get past our intellectual detachment and take his actions and words more seriously while applying them more practically and with greater urgency. His word and his actions indicate he was proselytizing unity through the power of love and concerted action for justice and compassion. Jesus was inviting us to seek the Kingdom within, a house with many mansions, because he directly experienced the glory of God and he believed that all humans had at their core the spark of divine consciousness. He sacrificed his life to ignite it in us and that is what made him our Savior.

What if all you had to do for everybody to agree that you were a Christian was to follow the teachings and life of Jesus Christ and live in harmony with the same universal laws that he lived in harmony with. What if Christianity had no problem with others believing that the central fact of His life was the complete realization of a conscious union of this man with the God of his understanding, and that it was his realization of his oneness with God that made Jesus the Christ? The Bible gives no indication that he ever claimed for himself anything that he did not claim for all mankind and He spoke of his remarkable achievements as the normal outcome of a state to which all of us could attain. By completely realizing this, first for himself, and then by pointing out the great laws which are the same for us as they were for him, he has given the whole world an ideal of life, an ideal we can attain to here and now, one that we could not have without him living and dying the way he did.

#184

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10.17.2022 04:53PM

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@Shila

My thread is open to all and everyone

And so it should be.
Until they are politely asked to leave.

No one has been asked to leave on this thread.
I know. That will be because no one is wilfully derailing your thread and taking it off topic..... except you.

Everyone needs a chance to say where they stand with the Historical Jesus.

I fully agree.

#185

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10.17.2022 06:03PM

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@Shila

Everyone needs a chance to say where they stand with the Historical Jesus.

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical joseph smith

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical confucius

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical prophet muhammad

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical abraham

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical jemima wilkinson

Topic's author

#186

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10.17.2022 06:16PM

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@3RU7AL

--> @Shila
Everyone needs a chance to say where they stand with the Historical Jesus.
everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical joseph smith

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical confucius

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical prophet muhammad

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical abraham

everyone needs a chance to say where they stand on the historical jemima wilkinson

But this thread is only about the historical Jesus. Look for other threads specific to your historical champion.

#187

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10.17.2022 06:43PM

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@Shila

But this thread is only about the historical Jesus. Look for other threads specific to your historical champion.

the point here is

even if the person's existence is verified

that doesn't somehow make all their stories automatically true

#188

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10.17.2022 07:00PM

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@Sidewalker

for instance, the Golden Rule "do unto others", is believed by some to have originated with Confucius. This not to reduce the import in any way.
Various expressions of this rule can be found in the tenets of most religions and creeds through the ages,

That is my point. Fluffy sayings, old or new are the order of the day when change/revolution is the intended goal.

Were you of the opinion that people think Jesus invented religion?

No. Stop being so silly.

The historical Jesus had a movement following after him,

So had all the others until their time was up and along came a new 'god' on the block when the skies moved into a new age. <<< you should seriously consider that.
I actually had already seriously considered that there were other people with followers both before and after Jesus,

Then you will understand that anyone educated enough will and is able to rally around him supporters, especially from among the poor and disenfranchised (the dead) as I have already explained above. And especially a leader with manifesto of freeing a nation from invading oppressors. This what was expected from a "Messiah". This is what the people expected, and this is what the people had been waiting for. And many had come and gone before Jesus, and they, like him failed miserably.

what is the significance of that, how does pointing that out serve your agenda?

I don't have an agenda. But Jesus did. He believed himself to be rightful heir to the throne. And he may well have had a case considering both Herod and the priesthood were all given their positions by Rome. I am simply pointing out that any charismatic leader with promises of a better life will always, and have always, garnered followers especially from among the ignorant poor and disenfranchised .... and let's not forget the superstitious. In Jesus' case the larger part his followers came from among the poor of Galilee the heartland of the zealots who hated Roman and anything Roman. Nearly all of his inner circle were zealots.

The Gospels are not simply about what happened to Jesus, they are also about what happened to Jesus’ followers, who experienced His continuing presence as a living reality long after his death.
Well, if one wanted to continue a movement after it lost its leader, that is the "vision" and image I would be promoting.
And you think being a catalyst for a movement that two thousand years later is two billion strong, amounts to “no change”,

I asked you what Jesus had changed in the time of his short ministry? Which was nothing. After the crucifixions the puppet king Herod was still in place and so were the puppet priests. Palestine was still under the Roman yoke and Jerusalem under Roman occupation. What came centuries after is completely another story. And nothing to do with the living historical JEW man that believed he should have been king of Jerusalem.

The historical Jesus didn’t found the Christian church by his ministry, the church came into being after His death, it is the resurrection that is the starting point of Christian religion.
(A) And I believe that the Jew Jesus would have been absolutely appalled that a whole new religion had sprang up in his name.
I would agree with that speculation, I think early Christianity was a movement within Judaism that was tolerated until the destruction of the second temple, afterward it was seen as a threat to traditional Judaism and rejected as having moved far enough away from traditional Judaism to no be a separate religion.

Well going by the very little we do know about Jesus the man; it is worth remembering that we know a lot more about Palestine in the 1st century.

An honest reading of what he actually said and did indicates that he was a Jewish rabbi who walked in the tradition of the prophets, was a teacher, a healer and wonderworker, a man that challenged prevailing systems of purity while associating with the marginal elements of society.

I can agree with some of that. But it is not unusual for say a politician to come out on the side of the poor and disenfranchised and that claims to " feel you pain" is it? Seriously what better and more fertile place to gather new recruits? And why? because this is where one will find the numbers. There are more of "us" than there are "them", that is why?
Is this conspiracy scholarship, do you think Jesus was trying to get elected? What office do you think he was campaigning for?

The highest office in the land, KINGSHIP FFS , how many times!!!! He was trying to garner supporters that would support his claim to the throne. And a close reading of the scripture will show that he had friends and supporters in high places... and low places that believed or at least agreed him to be rightful heir.

There is no historical evidence that he ever intended to establish a new set of religious dogmas or found a new religion.

I agree see (A) above. It was those that came after and maybe the few remaining members of the original movement. and we have to consider that which Jesus himself is alleged to have said " I have not come to change the law".
Yep, I’ve considered that, and the point you are making again?

(a)It appears that you are trying to make an argument of some kind, it’s just not clear what it is you are arguing. If you were to have made you point, what would be the conclusion?

I am. My argument is that the man Jesus, because his time was approaching, came out of exile to claim what he believed was rightfully his. I also believe he was building an army to take what was his by force if he couldn't reach his goal through diplomacy. But II cannot prove it no more than you can prove Jesus literally and physically walked on water.

His teaching "astonished" those who heard him.
Maybe it did. But again, this is nothing new. He was speaking to a new generation of a nation that had been under one foreign rule) or another for hundreds of years and heir gods by the time Jesus made his appearance there had been many "messiahs" come and go.
OK, and you were thinking that there are people who think that Jesus was the first person in history to “astonish” those who heard him? How doesn’t pointing out that he wasn’t serve you agenda, what is the point?

You keep saying I have an agenda. I don't. I am simply putting my own theory and opinions as I see them. These theories and opinions come from the scriptures themselves. And NO, I don't believe Jesus was "the first person to astonish" anyone. I thought I'd made that clear. There had been plenty of pretenders to the title of Messiah before and since. And in this regard, Jesus was no exception.

There could be an entirely different answer to this if ,Jesus survived the cross,
OK, do tell, what changed only if Jesus survived the cross?

This thread is not the place to discuss that. It would take a completely new thread and a lot of hours. But that shouldn't concern you in the slightest, should it? If you are of the belief that a three-day old rotting and stinking corpse came back to life and then took himself off up into the sky?

which is what I believe.

Do you think that you are the first person in history to believe that?

I know I'm not. I also know that there are better qualified people than myself that have proposed this theory<< before I was probably even born. So you can set your veiled sarcastic slights aside if you wish to discuss this subject further with me.

Also, how does your assertion relate to your BOP game,

In what sense? Surviving the cross?

is there a burden of proof that Jesus survived the cross,

(1) There is. And just like the burden of proof relating to the existence of an historical biblical Jesus, the 'evidence' is very scant. (2) The difference here though is that I can admit that I cannot prove my beliefs, or opinions and I always have done. Unlike the devout that believe their "faith" has all the answers, when it doesn't in the real world. "Because god or the bible says so" just does not work for the 21st century mind.

or do you have a “get out of BOP free” card, or maybe you are wearing your cloak of BOP invisibility?

If you wish to continue this conversation with me, stop being so fkn childish and read (1) & (2) above.

#189

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10.17.2022 07:05PM

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@Tradesecret

MISS TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a “MAN TO A WOMAN,” and then to “OTHER,” then went to her being 53 years old, then 12 years old, then changed to being 14 years old, Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO, Bible denier of Jesus being God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity she follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding the Noah's Ark narrative, SHE SAYS THAT OFFSPRING THAT CURSE THEIR PARENTS SHOULD BE KILLED, states there is FICTION within the scriptures, and is guilty of Revelation 22:18-19, 2 Timothy 4:3, and 1 Timothy 2:12. She obviously had ungodly Gender Reassignment Surgery, Satanic Bible Rewriter, she goes against Jesus in not helping the poor, teaches Christianity at Universities in a “blind leading the blind” scenario, and is a False Prophet, says that Jesus is rational when He commits abortions and makes His creation eat their children, and that Jesus is rational when He allows innocent babies to be smashed upon the rocks, will not debate me on the Trinity Doctrine or the Virgin Birth, has a myriad of EXCUSES not to answer your questions, and she is "AN ADMITTED SEXUAL DEVIANT!"

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE #172 OF EMBARRASSMENT RELATIVE TO YOUR MISGUIDED COMICAL PERCEPTION OF NOAH’S ARK: “Oh yes I remember that well.”

Who wouldn’t remember that great comedy that you presented in behalf of your complete weak-minded Bible ignorance upon said topic! It was priceless, and if only DEBATEART had a trophy award for the most outright stupid and ignorant narrative a member could present upon a Biblical topic! You on Noah’s Ark would have had that trophy to add with your others when you made a complete Bible fool of yourself on "other" certain Bible topics that I also have on file! LOL!

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE OF CIRCULAR REASONING AGAIN: “And yet for whatever reason, I continue to return.”

Again, you assume as a premise the conclusion in which you wish to reach, aka, circular reasoning, where the truly Bible inept like you have to use to at least "try" to save face, aka, "diversion tactic" subsequent to you stepping in the proverbial poo all the time. Truly sad.

You always come back because I want you too, duh, in the fact that I show others through you in what an assumed Christian is NOT supposed to be, as a runaway to the Bible truth, being outright Bible dense like you have shown the membership, and basically letting Jesus’ words and I own you outright! Whereas, you must have a “fetish” in me easily Bible Slapping you Silly®️ time and time again! LOL! Tsk, tsk!

The rest of your child-like circular reasoning rhetoric that you mentioned in patting yourself upon the back, will not be addressed because as usual, it addresses your narcissus modus operand that you “try” to present to the membership to hide your Bible dim-witted perceived knowledge, at your expense once again.

I have to admit, I miss poor ol’ Ethan5 who was as equally Bible stupid as you are, and because of that I easily played both of you together at times to see who was more Bible un-edcucated, remember dear? Of course you do! Don’t worry Miss Tradesecret, you always came out on top! LOL!

Since you came out of hiding again from taking a needed break because you were over-dosing on your Bible Stupid Pills,®️ I don’t know in how long you will be visiting this forum, therefore as usual on your behalf, I will once again correct you upon your complete Bible ineptness, okay dear? WAIT, in Jesus' name, you don’t have a choice in the matter to begin with, praise!

IS THERE ANOTHER BIBLE INEPT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WOMAN, OTHER THAN SHILA, THAT WOULD LIKE TO COME FORTH TO TAKE AWAY TRADESECRETS POSITION OF BEING THE #1 PINHEADED BIBLE FOOL WITHIN THIS FORUM? ANYONE?

#190

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Posts: 1,145

10.17.2022 08:26PM

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@Stephen

@Tradesecret

-> @Stephen @Tradesecret

Stephen,

As per your revealing quote relative to Tradesecret’s overall Bible stupidity in the following link https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/8091/post-links/351534, I will add where the Biblical person named "Lot" was held in high esteem along with your Bible passage of 2 Peter 2:7, where Tradesecret does not know these facts as usual! DUH!

It is duly noted that "Lot" helped in the formulation of the Levitical laws relative to the lives of the founding fathers of the Jewish Nation, including the righteous Lot, together with Abraham, Jacob, Judah, Moses and David, who were outstanding figures in Israelite tradition, period!

Stephen, just think, the totally Bible inept Miss Tradesecret continues to pull the wool over the eyes of her Kool-Aide drinking following, and she has the audacity to collect money from them at the same time in an ungodly way! BLASPHEME!

But, what did we expect from a hell bound woman named Miss Tradesecret and her Satanic stature that is not to be teaching men in the first place relative to Jesus’ inspired words herewith: “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” (1 Timothy 2:11-15 )

IS THERE ANY PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WOMAN THAT THEY WOULD ADMIT TOO, OTHER THAN SHILA, THAT THEY ARE MORE DUMBFOUNDED OF THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE THAN TRADESECRET IS?!

Topic's author

#191

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10.17.2022 08:31PM

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@3RU7AL

But this thread is only about the historical Jesus. Look for other threads specific to your historical champion.

the point here is

even if the person's existence is verified

that doesn't somehow make all their stories automatically true

If the persons existence is verified then that person becomes a historical fact.

Stories about the person can be verified through eyewitness accounts. But the persons existence is no longer in doubt.

#192

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10.17.2022 08:55PM

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@Shila

the point here is

even if the person's existence is verified

that doesn't somehow make all their stories automatically true
If the persons existence is verified then that person becomes a historical fact.

Stories about the person can be verified through eyewitness accounts. But the persons existence is no longer in doubt.

even if the jesus stories are based on a real person

that doesn't make any of the "eyewitness accounts" magically true

#193

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10.17.2022 09:02PM

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@Shila

--> @Tradesecret
Ethan gets more mentions than the rest of you together -

Yes,
for all the wrong reasons. Public Moderation Log (debateart.com)
The link says Ethang was banned for sexual harassment.
Is the Reverend defending his actions?

Ask him yourself. I have told you. I am not interested.

Topic's author

#194

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10.17.2022 09:02PM

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@3RU7AL

the point here is

even if the person's existence is verified

that doesn't somehow make all their stories automatically true

If the persons existence is verified then that person becomes a historical fact.

Stories about the person can be verified through eyewitness accounts. But the persons existence is no longer in doubt.

even if the jesus stories are based on a real person

that doesn't make any of the "eyewitness accounts" magically true

The case then shifts to why and what they are saying about a real person and how does it check out or corroborated.

#195

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Posts: 3,343

10.17.2022 09:26PM

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@Shila

Maybe if you followed the topic in each thread instead of making it all about your depravity and gender dysphoria you might get your views across as a Reverend and not what you are perceived as to the members.

I'm not particularly interested in pursuing a conversation which has gone down so many rabbits holes by those involved - and without any particular parameters in which to make a point. To me it looks primarily like you and Stephen are measuring each other up. the rest of those involved are along for the ride and obviously don't have anything better to do.

#196

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10.17.2022 09:26PM

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@BrotherD.Thomas

Excellent another post devoted to how wonderful I am. Oh I have missed you brother.

#197

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10.17.2022 09:29PM

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@BrotherD.Thomas

I am not entirely sure why you tagged me in your congratulaterly letter to Stephen. I suppose there was a reason - but I couldn't find it.

Have a nice day.

#198

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10.17.2022 09:31PM

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@Stephen

But even that gets up your nose doesn't it Stephen. Mind you - the only thing worse than being mentioned is not being mentioned. that's what they say isn't it?

As for defending him, it's not my job to do so one or the other. He still has more integrity than you.

#199

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10.17.2022 09:40PM

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@Tradesecret

But even that gets up your nose doesn't it Stephen.

Nope. Are you stalking me Reverend?

#200

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Posts: 13,430

10.17.2022 09:42PM

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@Shila

But the persons existence is no longer in doubt.

your sources can still be in doubt

do you think the epic of gilgamesh is true because it is based on a historical king ?

or the legends of king arthur, which are also apparently based on a historical figure ?

Topic's author

#201

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Posts: 2,740

10.17.2022 09:48PM

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@Tradesecret

--> @Shila
Maybe if you followed the topic in each thread instead of making it all about your depravity and gender dysphoria you might get your views across as a Reverend and not what you are perceived as to the members.
I'm not particularly interested in pursuing a conversation which has gone down so many rabbits holes by those involved - and without any particular parameters in which to make a point. To me it looks primarily like you and Stephen are measuring each other up. the rest of those involved are along for the ride and obviously don't have anything better to do.

Here you are admitting you are not particularly interested in pursuing a conversation which has gone down so many rabbits holes. But you make no attempt to address your depravity and gender dysphoria.

You also appear very judgemental despite links and evidence that confirm your depravity and gender dysphoria.

Everyone appears to you like they don't have anything better to do. But you are the only one obsessed with your depravity and gender dysphoria.

Let us help you Reverend so you can continue your mission to help others discover the historical and biblical Jesus,

Topic's author

#202

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Posts: 2,740

10.17.2022 10:00PM

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@3RU7AL

But the persons existence is no longer in doubt.

your sources can still be in doubt

do you think the epic of gilgamesh is true because it is based on a historical king ?

or the legends of king arthur, which are also apparently based on a historical figure ?

Most historians generally agree that Gilgamesh was a historical king of the Sumerian city-state of Uruk, who probably ruled sometime during the early part of the Early Dynastic Period ( c. 2900 – 2350 BC).

But was King Arthur actually a real person, or simply a hero of Celtic mythology? Though debate has gone on for centuries, historians have been unable to confirm that Arthur really existed.

#203

Debates: 6

Posts: 2,048

10.17.2022 11:48PM

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@Stephen

for instance, the Golden Rule "do unto others", is believed by some to have originated with Confucius. This not to reduce the import in any way.
Various expressions of this rule can be found in the tenets of most religions and creeds through the ages,

That is my point. Fluffy sayings, old or new are the order of the day when change/revolution is the intended goal.

OK, and why does this upset you so much?

Were you of the opinion that people think Jesus invented religion?
No. Stop being so silly.

OK, and how about you stop being outraged that Jesus said things that had already been said before.

The historical Jesus had a movement following after him,

So had all the others until their time was up and along came a new 'god' on the block when the skies moved into a new age. <<< you should seriously consider that.
I actually had already seriously considered that there were other people with followers both before and after Jesus,
Then you will understand that anyone educated enough will and is able to rally around him supporters, especially from among the poor and disenfranchised (the dead) as I have already explained above. And especially a leader with manifesto of freeing a nation from invading oppressors. This what was expected from a "Messiah". This is what the people expected, and this is what the people had been waiting for. And many had come and gone before Jesus, and they, like him failed miserably.

Finally you make your point, so you think Jesus failed miserably, good for you. Did you want me to be someone who gives a crap? Sorry bud, that's not my thing.

what is the significance of that, how does pointing that out serve your agenda?
I don't have an agenda. But Jesus did. He believed himself to be rightful heir to the throne. And he may well have had a case considering both Herod and the priesthood were all given their positions by Rome. I am simply pointing out that any charismatic leader with promises of a better life will always, and have always, garnered followers especially from among the ignorant poor and disenfranchised .... and let's not forget the superstitious. In Jesus' case the larger part his followers came from among the poor of Galilee the heartland of the zealots who hated Roman and anything Roman. Nearly all of his inner circle were zealots.

OK, whatever floats your boat.

For someone who agreed that we have very little historical knowledge about Jesus, you seem to know more, you have a lot of inside information, where do you get your information, revelation perhaps?

The Gospels are not simply about what happened to Jesus, they are also about what happened to Jesus’ followers, who experienced His continuing presence as a living reality long after his death.
Well, if one wanted to continue a movement after it lost its leader, that is the "vision" and image I would be promoting.
And you think being a catalyst for a movement that two thousand years later is two billion strong, amounts to “no change”,
I asked you what Jesus had changed in the time of his short ministry? Which was nothing. After the crucifixions the puppet king Herod was still in place and so were the puppet priests. Palestine was still under the Roman yoke and Jerusalem under Roman occupation. What came centuries after is completely another story. And nothing to do with the living historical JEW man that believed he should have been king of Jerusalem.

So there was this thing that happened where Jesus’ followers continued to follow Him for two thousand years and grew in number to over two billion, but you think that Jesus had nothing to do with it? It was just a coincidence that they were focused on a guy named Jesus, kind of like the amazing coincidence that Lou Gehrig just happened to die of Lou Gehrig’s disease. Got it.

The historical Jesus didn’t found the Christian church by his ministry, the church came into being after His death, it is the resurrection that is the starting point of Christian religion.
(A) And I believe that the Jew Jesus would have been absolutely appalled that a whole new religion had sprang up in his name.
I would agree with that speculation, I think early Christianity was a movement within Judaism that was tolerated until the destruction of the second temple, afterward it was seen as a threat to traditional Judaism and rejected as having moved far enough away from traditional Judaism to no be a separate religion.
Well going by the very little we do know about Jesus the man; it is worth remembering that we know a lot more about Palestine in the 1st century.

While we’re at it, let’s also remember that we know a lot more about 6th century BCE Greece than we do about Pythagoras. OK, your turn, what else is worth remembering?

An honest reading of what he actually said and did indicates that he was a Jewish rabbi who walked in the tradition of the prophets, was a teacher, a healer and wonderworker, a man that challenged prevailing systems of purity while associating with the marginal elements of society.

I can agree with some of that. But it is not unusual for say a politician to come out on the side of the poor and disenfranchised and that claims to " feel you pain" is it? Seriously what better and more fertile place to gather new recruits? And why? because this is where one will find the numbers. There are more of "us" than there are "them", that is why?
Is this conspiracy scholarship, do you think Jesus was trying to get elected? What office do you think he was campaigning for?
The highest office in the land, KINGSHIP FFS , how many times!!!! He was trying to garner supporters that would support his claim to the throne. And a close reading of the scripture will show that he had friends and supporters in high places... and low places that believed or at least agreed him to be rightful heir.

Hey, wait a minute, is this a Trump thing, are you doing the Gospel according to Fox News, is that why you are so hot and bothered?

There is no historical evidence that he ever intended to establish a new set of religious dogmas or found a new religion.
I agree see (A) above. It was those that came after and maybe the few remaining members of the original movement. and we have to consider that which Jesus himself is alleged to have said " I have not come to change the law".
Yep, I’ve considered that, and the point you are making again?

(a)It appears that you are trying to make an argument of some kind, it’s just not clear what it is you are arguing. If you were to have made you point, what would be the conclusion?
I am. My argument is that the man Jesus, because his time was approaching, came out of exile to claim what he believed was rightfully his. I also believe he was building an army to take what was his by force if he couldn't reach his goal through diplomacy.

This army, by any chance, they weren’t called the “Proud Boys” were they?

But II cannot prove it no more than you can prove Jesus literally and physically walked on water.

Why on earth would I want to try to prove that?

His teaching "astonished" those who heard him.
Maybe it did. But again, this is nothing new. He was speaking to a new generation of a nation that had been under one foreign rule) or another for hundreds of years and heir gods by the time Jesus made his appearance there had been many "messiahs" come and go.
OK, and you were thinking that there are people who think that Jesus was the first person in history to “astonish” those who heard him? How doesn’t pointing out that he wasn’t serve you agenda, what is the point?
You keep saying I have an agenda. I don't. I am simply putting my own theory and opinions as I see them. These theories and opinions come from the scriptures themselves. And NO, I don't believe Jesus was "the first person to astonish" anyone. I thought I'd made that clear. There had been plenty of pretenders to the title of Messiah before and since. And in this regard, Jesus was no exception.

OK, so you have strong negative feelings about Jesus, got it. And you were hoping I would give a crap, I'm sorry, but that’s just not my thing.

There could be an entirely different answer to this if ,Jesus survived the cross,
OK, do tell, what changed only if Jesus survived the cross?
This thread is not the place to discuss that. It would take a completely new thread and a lot of hours. But that shouldn't concern you in the slightest, should it? If you are of the belief that a three-day old rotting and stinking corpse came back to life and then took himself off up into the sky?

Obviously, you are having a conversation with someone besides me, and it is someone you are very upset with, the question becomes why are you having it with me instead of them, do they intimidate you, are you afraid to tell them what you think?

which is what I believe.

Do you think that you are the first person in history to believe that?

I know I'm not. I also know that there are better qualified people than myself that have proposed this theory<< before I was probably even born. So you can set your veiled sarcastic slights aside if you wish to discuss this subject further with me.

You still seem to have me confused with someone who gives a crap about what you think, perhaps you should tell them why you are upset instead of me, presumably they do give a crap.

Also, how does your assertion relate to your BOP game,
In what sense? Surviving the cross?

is there a burden of proof that Jesus survived the cross,

(1) There is. And just like the burden of proof relating to the existence of an historical biblical Jesus, the 'evidence' is very scant. (2) The difference here though is that I can admit that I cannot prove my beliefs, or opinions and I always have done. Unlike the devout that believe their "faith" has all the answers, when it doesn't in the real world. "Because god or the bible says so" just does not work for the 21st century mind.

OK, so this person you are afraid to talk to and are so upset with, can I presume you are describing them here?

I'm sorry, but I'm not doing any role playing either, why don't you try this BrotherD character, he's really really into role playing.

or do you have a “get out of BOP free” card, or maybe you are wearing your cloak of BOP invisibility?

If you wish to continue this conversation with me, stop being so fkn childish and read (1) & (2) above.

You’re the one that likes to play the BOP game while claiming it doesn’t apply to you, and not being a gamer myself, I’m just trying to understand how your BOP game works, do you wear a BOP proof vest when you play maybe?

How about the person you are so upset with, do they maybe play the game?

#204

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,343

10.18.2022 01:35AM

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@Stephen

You'd like that wouldn't you? And you think I have problems!

#205

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,343

10.18.2022 01:38AM

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@Shila

Here you are admitting you are not particularly interested in pursuing a conversation which has gone down so many rabbits holes. But you make no attempt to address your depravity and gender dysphoria.

As I said rabbit holes.

You also appear very judgemental despite links and evidence that confirm your depravity and gender dysphoria.

No judgmental bones in my body.

Everyone appears to you like they don't have anything better to do. But you are the only one obsessed with your depravity and gender dysphoria.

There are always people wanting to jump in and have a discussion, nevertheless, it is you and Stephen who are being the model litigants. Not.

Let us help you Reverend so you can continue your mission to help others discover the historical and biblical Jesus,

What size is that paper bag again?

#206

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,322

10.18.2022 04:19AM

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@Sidewalker

You still seem to have me confused with someone who gives a crap about what you think,....... Did you want me to be someone who gives a crap? ...... And you were hoping I would give a crap,

I'm sorry, but that’s just not my thing......

oh dear. And there was me thinking you did give crap ethang, Didn't take too long to expose you did it thicko.😂😂

#207

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,322

10.18.2022 04:45AM

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@Tradesecret

you think I have problems!

I know you do. Especially personality problems.

I have said it before Reverend tadesecret. Your self centred personality is only overshadowed by your self-delusion which borders on the pathological. When faced with facts that don't suit you, you will ignore them and make up alternative ones. Of course, the sycophantic fawning you used to receive from some here did go a long way to feed your over inflated ego. That of course has subsided immensely since I exposed you for what you are.

Individuals such as you with narcissistic personality problems don't respond well to criticism. This comes about simply because you believed your own BS.

Having seen and read much haughty self-aggrandizing but ineffectual praises of yourself written by yourself your jumbled up mind can’t decide fantasy from reality.

Individuals like you with narcissistic personality disorders do not respond well when their illusions of personal superiority are challenged and will adopt the role of victim having had their over inflated sense of personal worth and power challenged and then shattered.

The believability of the fantasy seems to be of no consequence. All that seems to count is whether the tall tale helps him rebuild the facade of his perceived greatness while just struggling to be relevant.

Individuals such as you "tradey"with narcissistic personality disorders (NPD) often do not care who they manipulate and lie to or how much harm it may cause by lying.

Of prime importance to NPD suffers is their self-aggrandizement and the propping up of their fragile egos, not the wellbeing of their fellow men and women. .

Off you go now. There's a good lad.

#208

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,287

zedvictor4

10.18.2022 05:11AM

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@Shila

My apologies.

#85

#209

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,343

10.18.2022 06:00AM

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@Stephen

you think I have problems!

I know you do.

Context Stephen, context, it really matters.

you - the number one stalker on this site - asked the question - with the obvious intention to distract.

Do I have problems? Yeah - but compared to you - I really don't.

It's all in the context.

#210

Debates: 6

Posts: 2,048