70,000 illegals and 1 Christian Abibi

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  • Stephen
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    70,000 illegalsand 1 Christian Abibi
    Just yesterday a Christian member here was talking about being my “brother through Christ” and“We believers are all brothers in Christ”
    #14
    This is absolute garbage.
     
     We have had in the headlines for some months now story of the desperate plight of a Christian Pakistani woman who had spent over 8 years on death row for Islamic blasphemy.
     
    Not a single western country has offered to give her asylum from persecution. This is not to mention that not a single “brother in Christ” on this forum has even mentioned the plight of their own “Christian sister”.  They make me sick!

    She has had the original verdict overturned but she, and all of her known relatives are in hiding because the baying Muslim mob of thousands who had spent nearly a week protesting still want her and anyone hiding her put to death. Asia Bibi’s story in brief amounts to this>:

    Her difficulties began as she picked berries with other farmworkers in a Punjab field in June 2009. A quarrel with two Muslim women erupted after she was asked to fetch water and they said they would not drink from a vessel touched by a Christian.
    The women later alleged to a village mullah that Mrs Bibi had insulted the Prophet. She has always denied blasphemy and said she had been falsely accused to settle a score.

    “Britain has not offered asylum to a Pakistani Christian woman freed after eight years on death row for blasphemy because of fear it would prompt “unrest” in the UK and attacks on embassies, her supporters claim”.
    And Canada are said to be “in talks” about whether to grant her asylumthere.
    I made a passing comment about Asia Bibi on another thread started by the great fence sitter himself Keithprosser who had another Christian story running asking-  was a Christian missionary a “Martyr or a Mug” https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/795
    He was still on the fence himself and had not given his verdict either way until he was recently ( a few minutes ago) prompted to do so, it was his thread after all.
     
     
    And while all of this is going on Britain has accepted 70,000 illegals so far this year, and over £150, 00 has been raised to re-house a 15 year old “bullied refugee” bullied by another 15 year old and something that must happen every day in our schools up and down the country..
    It only goes to say that the silence of Asia Bibi’s persecution is deafening and not a single Christian here has had the balls to even mention it never mind protest about it here.
     
    “We believers are all brothers in Christ”. My arse!
  • Stephen
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    I see the "brotherly christians" have no comment on the appalling treatment of their christian sister.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    I don't think posting on DA would change anything.

    I suspect that the British government is in a bind.   Having declined to offer asylum once to change its mind would look weak and indecisive and May is already on the defensive on other fronts.  Bit of a cock-up on the PR front if nothing else for the governmnent and for Britain.  I get the impression that there is very widespread support for Ms Bibi's asylum request in the general population but concern over a disproportionate Islamist reaction has muted any strong opposition to the governments stance.

    As a human being I would like Bibi to be offered uk asylum and be able to take it up in peace.   But if I were a Prime Minister concerned with 'Real Politick' and the definite possibility more people will die than are saved if things go wrong (as they frequently do) the decision is much, much harder.   There is still the problem that Pakistan refuses to allow her to leave, making any offer of asylum moot.

    btw, Stephen - you seem to think I have Christian leanings!   Nothing could be further from the truth.  I am a dyed-in-the-wool atheist; I'm just not the noisy, iconoclastic sort.

      
  • PGA2.0
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    --> @Stephen
    70,000
    illegalsand 1 Christian Abibi
    Just yesterday a Christian member here was talking about being my “brother through Christ” and“We believers are all brothers in Christ”
    #14
    This is absolute garbage.
     
     We have had in the headlines for some months now story of the desperate plight of a Christian Pakistani woman who had spent over 8 years on death row for Islamic blasphemy. 
     
    Not a single western country has offered to give her asylum from persecution. This is not to mention that not a single “brother in Christ” on this forum has even mentioned the plight of their own “Christian sister”.  They make me sick!

    She has had the original verdict overturned but she, and all of her known relatives are in hiding because the baying Muslim mob of thousands who had spent nearly a week protesting still want her and anyone hiding her put to death. Asia Bibi’s story in brief amounts to this>:

    Her difficulties began as she picked berries with other farmworkers in a Punjab field in June 2009. A quarrel with two Muslim women erupted after she was asked to fetch water and they said they would not drink from a vessel touched by a Christian.
    The women later alleged to a village mullah that Mrs Bibi had insulted the Prophet. She has always denied blasphemy and said she had been falsely accused to settle a score.

    “Britain has not offered asylum to a Pakistani Christian woman freed after eight years on death row for blasphemy because of fear it would prompt “unrest” in the UK and attacks on embassies, her supporters claim”.
    And Canada are said to be “in talks” about whether to grant her asylumthere.
    I made a passing comment about Asia Bibi on another thread started by the great fence sitter himself Keithprosser who had another Christian story running asking-  was a Christian missionary a “Martyr or a Mug” https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/795
    He was still on the fence himself and had not given his verdict either way until he was recently ( a few minutes ago) prompted to do so, it was his thread after all.
     
     
    And while all of this is going on Britain has accepted 70,000 illegals so far this year, and over £150, 00 has been raised to re-house a 15 year old “bullied refugee” bullied by another 15 year old and something that must happen every day in our schools up and down the country.. 
    It only goes to say that the silence of Asia Bibi’s persecution is deafening and not a single Christian here has had the balls to even mention it never mind protest about it here. 
     
    “We believers are all brothers in Christ”. My arse!

    This is an appeal to pity or emotions. On the one hand, it says it is wrong and on the other it pidgeons all Christians together into one camp while vilifying them. It creates a highly charged situation and then it heaps a whole load of condemnation on Christians while ignoring the rest of humanity. 

    While I do not condone the situation and now that I have been made aware of it I pray for her and her family, but the world is an unjust place for humanity fails to honor and obey God as He is.

    Your own country (providing you are American) appears to have lost its sense of justice. The law is not followed equally there. There are different standards depending on whether you are conservative or liberal, a Democrat or Republican, unborn or newborn.

    What Jesus said still bears truth in our day and age. 

    “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 


  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    Bit of a cock-up on the PR front if nothing else for the governmnent and for Britain. 
     
      That’s it is it prosser?  “bit of a cock – up on the PR front”. Someone’s life  is undoubtedly in danger and your response is –“ it's all down to a bit of a cock up” and we can’t do much about it now.
     
      I get the impression that there is very widespread support for Ms Bibi's asylum request in the general population but concern over a disproportionate Islamist reaction was muted any strong opposition to the governments stance.
     
    Yes it has been recognised by our own government that the-  not so integrated muslim communities of GB and who follow the religion of peace may want to murder Bibi.
     
    And as you know, this story has dropped away from Western media now (not that it was there more than a day or so) and been replaced by the “so called bullying incident at a school”. As I mentioned on your own thread about the Christian missionary I mentioned that I wrote to my own mp only for him to respond more or less in the same vein as yourself replied  to the effect that -  to interfere and allow her refuge may upset "British Muslims here at home and we have to consider their reactions".
     
    As a human being I would like Bibi tobe offered uk asylum and be able to take it up in peace.  
    And have you written to your MP in an atheist capacity insisting she be given Asylum? Or are you on the fence?
     
    But if I were a Prime Minister Concerned with 'Real Politick' and the definite possibility more people will die than are saved if things go wrong (as they frequently do) the decision is much, much harder.  
     
     Good point. There no doubt that there is avery good chance that the Muslims of the religion of peace would be 'peacefully, up in arms about this as they were in Pakistan demanding that this ill treated and persecuted Christian being allowed to settle here in this Christian Country.
     
     
     There is still the problem that Pakistan Refuses to allow her to leave, making any offer of asylum moot.
     
    Well the Canadians are said to be “in talks” ? But I believe these "talks" will last forever, I hope I am wrong.
     
    btw, Stephen - you seem to think I Have Christian leanings!  
     
    Nope. This again must be the nature of the internet. I have never taken you to be a Christian and I believed you when you told me you were a full blown atheist the 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th and 5th times that you told me.. I have taken you for  how you come across to me, that is  extremely conceited and very arrogant and egocentric at times. And are for the most part contrary simply for the sake of it. But I can live with it. You don’t offend me in the slightest.  and I wouldn't want you banned even if you called me stupid.
     
     
     
     

  • Stephen
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    While I do not condone the situation and now that I have been made aware of it I pray for her and her family.
    Nice, that, praying for her: But now that you are “aware of it” don’t you think that the Christian Community should be more vocal and or active?  I am not a practicing Christian but I have written to my local MP demanding that this “PERSECUTED CHRISTIAN WOMAN,  be given asylum her in the UK.
     
    Your own country(providing you are American) appears to have lost its sense of justice.
     
    I am white English. I Am from a country where children now are being taught it is wrong to be white and that they should be ashamed of themselves for being so. I believe this is happening in the States and Canada also.
     
    What Jesus said still bears truth in our day and age. 
     
    “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 
     Yes, all very helpful and comforting in Bibi’s hour of need, I am sure.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    I wouldn't want you banned even if you called me stupid.
     I wouldn't want you banned even if you called me conceited, arrogant or egocentric.

    Someone’s life  is undoubtedly in danger and your response is –“ it's all down to a bit of a cock up” and we can’t do much about it now.
    'Can't do much about it now' is your addition.  it's a PR cock-up because all that's been achieved is making May's administration appear either callous, weak or scared - or all three.   Hardly a PR coup, is it?

    It would seem such an easy option to offer asylum that one has to wonder why no offer has been made.  I'm not convinced that fear of upsettng a very few Islamic hot-heads here in the UK is the main reason, even if its the one given in public.   Pakistan has had to promise its own hot heads (of which it has millions) it will prevent bibi leaving.   That country is - by all accounts - on the edge and a credible offer of asylum could push it over the edge.  The worst case leaves a hard line Islamist regime in charge of a nuclear power. 

    I wish I was privy to the thinking behind the refusal to offer asylum, particularly as she is unable take it up.  maybe in 30 years the relevant docunets wlll revealed...




  • Stephen
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    'Can't do much about it now' is your addition.
    It was, and that is why it is not in quotes attributing it to you..


     it's a PR cock-up because all that's been achieved is making May's administration appear either callous, weak or scared - or all three.   Hardly a PR coup, is it?

    It would seem such an easy option to offer asylum that one has to wonder why no offer has been made.  I'm not convinced that fear of upsetting a very few Islamic hot-heads here in the UK is the main reason, even if its the one given in public.   Pakistan has had to promise its own hot heads (of which it has millions) it will prevent bibi leaving.   That country is - by all accounts - on the edge and a credible offer of asylum could push it over the edge.  The worst case leaves a hard line Islamist regime in charge of a nuclear power. 

    I wish I was privy to the thinking behind the refusal to offer asylum, particularly as she is unable take it up.  maybe in 30 years the relevant documents will revealed...
      So, that is a no, then, you haven't written to your local MP.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    Do many people really write to their MP?
     
    I've done my share of marching around carrying placards - mostly against racists and fascists.  But these days I'm usually content to watch things unfold. 
  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    Do many people really write to their MP?
    I don't think posting on DA would change anything.
    Well now we know that you are not just  conceited, arrogant and egocentric and contrary for the sake of it, you are also apathetic.

    And yes, I believe people do. Me for one. 

    I've done my share of marching around carrying placards -

    Sending a letter is not marching around. It is walking up to the post box and slipping your letter into the slot located at the top. And there is Email where there is no marching around or up to anything  at all.

    mostly against racists and fascists

    I see, anyone who doesn't agree with you and has an alternate argument and opinion. Why am I not surprised.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    I see, anyone who doesn't agree with you and has an alternate argument and opinion.
    I didn't march against what I agreed with, if that's what you mean!

  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
     racists and fascists
    I see, anyone who doesn't agree with you and has an alternate argument and opinion, and  SO CONSIDER TO BE "racists and fascists".  Why am I not surprised.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    i'm afraid that equating "racists and fascists" with "anyone who doesn't agree with [me] and has an alternate argument and opinion," is a dishonest reconstruction of what have posted, nor is it how I think.

    As no-one else is following this thread and I know what I wrote and what I think, who are you trying to mislead?   There is no gallery to play to.

    99% of people don't care about Asia Bibi.  Wouldn't it be great if her plight was the only thing to worry about on this sorry planet.



  • Stephen
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    99% of people don't care about Asia Bibi. 

    I agree, including christians.
  • PGA2.0
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    --> @Stephen

    While I do not condone the situation and now that I have been made aware of it I pray for her and her family.
    Nice, that, praying for her: But now that you are “aware of it” don’t you think that the Christian Community should be more vocal and or active?  I am not a practicing Christian but I have written to my local MP demanding that this “PERSECUTED CHRISTIAN WOMAN,  be given asylum her in the UK.
    I am a Canadian. In our news I see this caption:
    "Ottawa engaged in 'delicate' talks to protect Pakistani woman released from blasphemy death sentence." 

    Under this I read:
    "Conservatives press government to grant asylum to Asia Bibi, who spent 8 years on death row...Earlier today, the Conservatives held a news conference to call on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to grant asylum to Bibi and her family..."Andrew Scheer's Conservatives are calling on the Trudeau government to use every mechanism at their disposal to offer the Bibi family asylum, and to encourage the Pakistani government to allow Asia Bibi to travel freely in light of recent negotiations with the extremist TLP party which could see authorities bar her from leaving the country," she said. "


    The Conservative Party in my country is made up largely of Christians. We, as Christians pray to raise concerns about Christian persecution around the world every day, not just there. Christian communities also take actions like inform their members of parliament of these situations.

    We, as Christians also realize that we will be hated because of our beliefs and consider it as something God allows us to go through to strengthen our faith for when there seems no apparent out God provides a way through prayer and actions. Whatever the outcome we, as Christians, believe that everything works out for the good for those who love God and abide in His love. Whether in our sojourn here on earth or after this brief physical existence God will work out our destiny with His good in mind. That so often means our persecution that others will come to faith or see our (hopefully) good example. 

    You assume the Christian community is not being vocal about it. The purpose of God stands. Sometimes a believer is put through hell to bring attention to an injustice. The whole system in Pakistan stinks of religious intolerance, not the kind of faith that is loving. It makes you think twice about what is being taught and how hateful people can be to what is good. 



    Jesus said that those who believe in Him would suffer persecution in this lifetime but to take courage for He overcame the world and its system of unrighteousness. We, as Christians, have a common bond that transcends our daily struggles and a hope for tomorrow. What kind of hope do you offer her if she is not released???


     
    Your own country(providing you are American) appears to have lost its sense of justice.
     
    I am white English. I Am from a country where children now are being taught it is wrong to be white and that they should be ashamed of themselves for being so. I believe this is happening in the States and Canada also.
    Yes, there is a lot of intolerance to particular segments of the population, like conservatives and whites. They are being painted in a negative frame of mind to influence the hearts and minds of the gullible. 

     
    What Jesus said still bears truth in our day and age. 
     
    “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 
     Yes, all very helpful and comforting in Bibi’s hour of need, I am sure.
    Some Christian's understand that the world is evil and that God is ultimately in control. What happens does so for a purpose. For one, it exposes the evil and duplicity in organized religion. I include atheism in this category for it is a religion of the self. It looks to the self as its final and ultimate authority, IMO. 
  • Stephen
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    --> @PGA2.0
    The Conservative Party In my country is made up largely of Christians. We, as Christians pray to raise concerns about Christian persecution around the world every day, not just there.
     
    But you hadn’t even been aware of it until yesterday. And I am not convinced that you will "raise concerns" simply by praying to "raise concerns". Do you not realise how silly that sounds?
    Christian communities also take actions like inform their members of parliament of these situations. 

    Good,  then now you are aware of Bibi's plight then tell us what you have done and when you have done it. I understand that you have started to pray since yesterday, but do not rely on prayer alone, she could be dead before you even get to your next amen.<<<<<< that is not mocking, it is a fact. 

     
    We, as Christians also realize that we will be hated 
     
    You are not hated by me so keep that tar brush to yourself or save it for Muslims, who make no secret about what they think of Christians and Jews.
    You assume the Christian community is not being vocal about it. 
     
    That right I do.  Like I said, you hadn’t even heard about the plight of Bibi until yesterday. So let us know how vocal you and your brethren are going to be over the coming weeks.  I mentioned myself that you’re Christian government are in “talks”. Any news about that by the way? What’s happening, Have you enquired about Bibi's welfare as I have done?
     
    The whole system in Pakistan stinks of religious intolerance, not the kind of faith that is loving.
     
    Yes, that will be Islam,the one Justin – “people-kind” Trudeau can’t help licking up to.

                the world is evil and that God is ultimately in control. What happens does so for a purpose. 

     This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is what I find offensive about religion and "god"!!!.
  • keithprosser
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    The whole system in Pakistan stinks of religious intolerance, not the kind of faith that is loving.
    Muslims and moderate Christians are not so different, but both are very different from their fanatical wings (who resemble each other).
    Religions don't have an instrinsic character - it is down to interpretation and practice.    i

    Over the last few decades an aggessive, assertive and fundamentalist interpetation of Islam has become inceasingly influential and even dominant.  I think it is better to concentrate on why that is happening now rather than spouting un-nuanced condemnations of Islam.   That only alienates and weakens moderate Muslims who are the main victims of Islamism.    Islamists kill many more Muslims than they do Christians. 

    I am not defending islam - I am saying that things are never black and white.   

  • Stephen
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    Islamists kill many more Muslims than they do Christians.  

    They kill many thousands of christians too. Syria's Christian community that goes back 2,000 years has been almost decimated. And thousands more have had to flee their homes. thousands more murdered in northern Iraq  where they have been persecuted for years. Turkey too. Not to mention the Philippines and Indonesia where christians are still being beheaded and churches are being destroyed.  So,don't start playing statistics, prosser. The only reason muslims kill many other muslims is sectarian.  Islamic sectarianism is put to one side and they become brothers in arms against a "common enemy" the kuffar- non believer when some mad mullah decides he doesn't like  book or a cartoon. 

    And by trying to categorie and pigeonhole muslims with language such as "islamist" and "moderates" is simply trying to cloak the barbarity of Islam and put it all down to just a "few muslims", it doesn't work. Many people have started to learn for themselves about Islam since the 9/11 atrocities and have found out for themselves that Islam contrary, to what our world leaders wish us to believe and almost order us to believe, is not a religion of peace. 


  • Stephen
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    --> @PGA2.0
    While I do not condone the situation and now that I have been made aware of it I pray for her and her family, but the world is an unjust place for humanity fails to honor and obey God as He is. 

    Well, now you have done all the praying , what have you done about your Christian sisters predicament now that you have been made aware of it some time now?
    Have you contacted any members of government?  What have you said? What have they replied?