If you believe the 2020 election was rigged, I&#39;m calling your bluff

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,447

03.17.2023 09:04PM

If one believes the election is rigged, then they don't vote in it. If you think the voting machines are going to switch your pro Trump votes to pro Biden ones, then what's the point in voting if the elites decided who the winner is going to be?

You vote because you trust the electoral process. Otherwise, don't vote in the elections that you think are going to be rigged against you.

YouFound_Lxam

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YouFound_Lxam

03.18.2023 02:44AM

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@TheUnderdog

Again, you need to get better at understanding politics.

Topic's author

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03.18.2023 02:53AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

How so?

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Posts: 13,090

03.18.2023 06:51AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Again, you need to get better at understanding politics.

He definitely does

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Posts: 13,090

03.18.2023 06:53AM

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@TheUnderdog

How so?

Studying up on the Constitutional Conventions. Read the Federalist Papers. Read the Constitution. Touch up on your American History.

Right now, you scream ignorance.

Debates: 167

Posts: 3,842

03.18.2023 08:05AM

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@TheUnderdog

You vote because you trust the electoral process. Otherwise, don't vote in the elections that you think are going to be rigged against you.

The null hypothesis for all voters is that the voting system is fair. They assume so if they vote.

If evidence of riggedness is apparent to them, it means the election failed them after them voting, not before. If they are pessimistic about voting beforehand, obviously they would not vote.

You make a fair point, but it concerns nearly no one. It is like trying to calm a group of angry sports fans when their team had blown the whistle and called it a day way lower than their league with "if your team is not gonna try anyways, why not just keep working and not come to the game". I believe this is one of the cases where "nobody cares" can be applied reasonably.

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

03.18.2023 09:13AM

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@ILikePie5

And trump still lost legitimately.

Soon, a chance for another go at the next election circus.

Watch this space.

Not that I'm saying that the Presidential election process is perfect.

Far from it.

That's one of the drawbacks with pandering to history.

Debates: 167

Posts: 3,842

03.18.2023 09:41AM

Why not just use punch cards or something? Or like the answering sheet of multiple choice on SAT?

You fill your in your ID number on the top, it looks something like this:

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7

8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8

9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9

Instructions are printed and the same instructions are posted in the form of a video online.

The same precautions are used to prevent you from voting deliberately for some other voter. Only the first card per ID counts and illegitimate ID numbers are not counted.

Then several spaces representing candidates are presented. You color it in and that means that is who you vote for. The cards then go through several readers(the ones used to grade the SAT exams, like that), several is used to reduce variability.

What you are left with is semi-automated ballot reading and definitely less error. The prominent issue is if the machines break... But that is less a problem than employees falling sleep.

The important question would be, Is this already being used? I am not old enough to vote, so I don't know.

The more important question: Would such designing tasks be the concerns of "political engineering"?

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03.18.2023 04:21PM

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@TheUnderdog

Copy pasted from a similar comment of yours in a different thread:

The system is rigged. Information is controlled. Ballots are harvested and probably forged.
If you REALLY believe the election is rigged, don't vote in it. Why vote in an election where they will take some of your votes and turn them into democrat votes? You would be helping the democrat party if that happens.

That's not the most probable significant mechanism of cheating. They don't turn my ballot into a democrat ballot. It's basically identity fraud, they pretend to be someone who died, doesn't live there anymore, or is extremely unlikely to vote and thus discover the fraud.

A). They use the information of a real person (or at least a real record in the voter registry) to request a mail in ballot, fill it out, send it back in. In every case I've investigated having access to someone's driver's licence number, address, and full name is sufficient information. Such information is stored by county governments, if it wasn't it wouldn't be possible to verify information. In my county (I can't say which for anonymity) the database is unencrypted and present on every SD card used by every poll book.

If a single one was copied it would provide anyone everything they needed to know to request a ballot for anyone in the county.

When considering that mechanism continuing to vote is vital, if they attempt to request a mail in ballot in my name it would be flagged in the system when I went to vote in person (or asked for a ballot myself). Enough of that would force your so called "independents" to admit something was up. At the very least I can turn in a provisional ballot which has a chance of causing my true intentions to be counted.

When I worked as an election official in the midterms a significant number of people were flagged as having requested a mail in ballot and said either they didn't request a ballot or it didn't arrive in time. One did this on purpose, seeing if we would detect an attempted double vote. This is the only pattern of evidence that could be expected with (A).

(A) has a minimum conspiracy size of 1; that is only 1 person at a time is needed to move the process forward, no plans need to be discussed and no identity leaking coordination is necessary.

B.) Another mechanism which is possible with a small conspiracy sizes (perhaps as little as 2) is ballot swapping after separation yet before the official counting. The conspirators identify undesirable ballots and remove X of them, throwing them out or destroying them. They then replace them with an equal number of ballots with the preferred choices.

This method requires access to authentic blank ballots, this is not difficult; especially given the enormous excess that are printed to be mailed, much greater than the number returned.

The main inhibitor to this method would be surveillance in the counting room, so long as there is constant video of the ballot envelopes of high enough quality it would be very risky to try and bring in or remove ballots from the room much less presort.

However, in many instances there is plenty of reason to believe that no such cameras exist, or that they are not constantly recording.

Another variant of this method is the opening of ballot envelopes before the arrive at the counting center. Unwanted ballots are discarded but the accompanying form is retained. If the conspiracy is large enough they can be smuggled into the post separation storage areas. Otherwise they can be repacked and brought in as normal mail in ballots.

In this case I would indeed be providing a form which they can use to steal my vote, however if I vote in person there is no form to steal.

-------

Even excluding either of those methods, not voting is the one way to assure defeat even if they don't cheat. Thus it would be important to continue voting regardless for no other purpose than to force them to continue cheating.

So long as they are cheating, it's possible that they fail. They could chicken out, not have enough ground support, be caught (best case scenario).

Also it is possible that the cheaters become weary of the constant doomsaying, say if Ron DeSantis is the next great satan, they may realize that the media is just doing this to anyone who opposes the deep state and it's nothing unique with Trump. If they loose motivation to cheat, obviously the good guys would still lose if they just stopped voting.

Finally, if there isn't much cheating it's important to keep voting.

In conclusion, the game theory is straightforward and clear: Keep voting, no matter what is going on in what degree it is critical.

#10

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Posts: 23,392

03.18.2023 04:30PM

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@ADreamOfLiberty

Also, many cases of election fraud that could be scrutinized are regularly thrown out by the courts on the basis of "standing," as low interest or dead people won't care to or cannot file the required legal paperwork. There used to be laws against proxy voting instead of what we have today. Today's legalized ballot harvesting is a direct opposition to the traditional election laws designed to protect the anonymity of the voter.

#11

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03.18.2023 04:35PM

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@ADreamOfLiberty

You also left out another inevitable outcome of your game theory. If the system allows rigging, you learn to cheat better than the other side.

#12

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Posts: 3,074

03.18.2023 04:40PM

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@Intelligence_06

One of the reasons it seems so many americans do not know how it could be rigged or believe it could be rigged in ways it could not have been is because they don't understand how it works in theory or practice. People who believe in dastardly dominion electronic tabulators don't understand that recount audits (the only kind of audit that was or could be done in most cases) would catch that cheating.

No intelligent opponent would cheat in a way that could be verified after the fact unless they could be sure that no attempt would be made.

Then we come to your comment:

The same precautions are used to prevent you from voting deliberately for some other voter. Only the first card per ID counts and illegitimate ID numbers are not counted.

American democracy is by secret ballot. This isn't in the constitution but it has been so widely adopted (by legislatures) that it may as well be.

To you (and many others) this is a simple matter: just don't let people vote more than once. But:

1.) Having a unique ID on a ballot is unverifiable unless that unique ID can be correlated with a particular citizen. Such a correlation violates the secrecy of the ballot. There are cryptographic means to solve this problem, however implementing them on paper rather than by computer would be pointless and inelegant. No state except West Virginia has tried. In all other states (that I've heard of) there is a pile of anonymous ballots, there is no way to verify anything except that the number of ballots matches the number of envelope forms.

2.) Even when there is a unique ID, it can be stolen. There are already many approximates for a voter-ID number that states use. Drivers license #, social security #, address + name. If any of these things were robust secrets there wouldn't be so much identity theft. With the possibility of inside jobs these mechanisms of ID cannot be considered any level of security at all.

The important question would be, Is this already being used? I am not old enough to vote, so I don't know.

Automated ballot counters are used, they have (in theory) sensitive rejection algorithms so they refuse to count a ballot unless the marking is clear. They are not a major vector for cheating so long as the paper ballots are kept.

#13

the_viper

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Posts: 7

the_viper

03.18.2023 05:13PM

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@TheUnderdog

Electron fraud happens in pretty much every election; most experts agree that it's impossible to prevent on a small scale. Whether it's ever flipped an election or even one state is another matter entirely, but denying it altogether is just ignorant.

#14

Debates: 167

Posts: 3,842

03.19.2023 01:45AM

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@ADreamOfLiberty

1.) Having a unique ID on a ballot is unverifiable unless that unique ID can be correlated with a particular citizen. Such a correlation violates the secrecy of the ballot.

Not having this is mind-blowing. In China, everyone has an ID card with a number. When they buy something, they enter the number.

Just this would remove at least one category of rigging.

#15

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Posts: 3,074

03.19.2023 01:58AM

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@Intelligence_06

1.) Having a unique ID on a ballot is unverifiable unless that unique ID can be correlated with a particular citizen. Such a correlation violates the secrecy of the ballot.
Not having this is mind-blowing. In China, everyone has an ID card with a number. When they buy something, they enter the number.

People are rightly concerned about government registries and twice as concerned about secret government registries.

If the state knew who voted for whom that would give them information which could be used to politically persecute people, perhaps even entire districts.

Still, given the grave importance of these systems the utter lack of forethought an apathetic approach to all legal requirements is... It's some combination of intentional vulnerability or utter incompetence, either possibility is as you put it mind-blowing.

The best solution is biometric blockchain voting. I've described it before on this site I believe.

#16

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Posts: 3,074

03.19.2023 02:20AM

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@Greyparrot

Also, many cases of election fraud that could be scrutinized are regularly thrown out by the courts on the basis of "standing," as low interest or dead people won't care to or cannot file the required legal paperwork.

It was quite the eye-opener. The idea of a reliable judiciary went out the window. It's like they think no one is paying attention. I know many aren't, people like IWantRoosevelt read "judge says" and think that's proof that there was no merit; but for so many judges to hide under their desk or just gleefully not care.

It happened again in miniature with the Arizona election case (which I watched from beginning to end). An election official near the top of the hierarchy committed perjury and the judge didn't seem to care. Obviously treasonous of the judge; yet it was pathetic to see the pro-democracy crowd so demoralized by the deep state that they were content with merely the fact that the case was heard in the first place.

There used to be laws against proxy voting instead of what we have today. Today's legalized ballot harvesting is a direct opposition to the traditional election laws designed to protect the anonymity of the voter.

The legal but obviously antidemocratic laws are a whole other problem that may have swung the outcome in 2020 and 2022.

People who can't remember their own address aren't competent to vote (I've personally seen this). Yet the law allows caregivers to basically utilize an entire retirement home full of Alzheimer's patients (or simply don't know what the hec is happening due to general senility) for votes. This is a clear and obvious threat to democracy that became extremely easy to exploit due to unsolicited mass mail in voting.

You also left out another inevitable outcome of your game theory. If the system allows rigging, you learn to cheat better than the other side.

Unfortunately this playing field is not symmetric. As we've seen the judges and cops are mostly on the left-tribe's side simply by default of "Don't burn down my house". The USA is a post terror intimidation state after the BLM riots were neither stopped nor punished. Everyone knows that antifa will burn down your house and get away with it.

People who got waived in on Jan 6 are kept as political prisoners, evidence is destroyed and hidden to keep the witch-hunt going.

You can see from this that the rules will not be evenly applied. Just because they turn a blind eye to their own side's cheating does not mean they will do so for you.

In terms of election rigging they also have an inherent advantage. They control the high population density regions. This gives them significant sample pool to impersonate from while relatively few election workers oversee potentially huge voting districts.

The final and most important difference is the naive integrity, represented perfectly by one man: Mike Pence. Starts talking about the intentions of the founding fathers in what is basically a post-insurrection state of war.

Those who do not understand the enemy doesn't care how they win are enormous liabilities.

139 days later

#17

jamgiller

Debates: 10

Posts: 56

jamgiller

08.05.2023 07:35AM

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@ADreamOfLiberty

Do you think the 2020 election was stolen, and what evidence do you have, if so?

#18

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Posts: 3,074

08.05.2023 05:39PM

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@jamgiller

Do you think the 2020 election was stolen

Yes

and what evidence do you have, if so?

1.) Motive (Novel)

A.) TDS as exemplified by Sam Harris https://youtu.be/SehSueDi7js?t=506, there are millions like him. "That's a left wing conspiracy to deny the presidency, but I think it was warranted".

B.) Conspiracies to censor and create opportunity for fraud are proudly exposed after the fact https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/

2.) Means & Opportunity (Novel)

See post #9 of this thread: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9073/posts/379840, I can expand on this if you have questions

3.) Circumstantial statistical evidence (Novel)

A.) Unprecedented signature acceptance rates

B.) 2000 Mule analysis (GPS appears to show mules making repeated routes from community centers to drop boxes)

C.) Near proof (beyond a reasonable doubt) of specific instances of untracable fraud found by public information of voter registration and ballot return, for example: https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2022/02/shocking-evidence-of-widespread-fraud-in-wisconsins-voter-database/

Specific individuals who voted twice using multiple voter ID numbers
Voters registered without a first name
Voters registered without a last name
Voters registered without a street address
Voters registered with phony addresses
26 voters registered at one two-bedroom apartment
290 voters registered at a 16-apartment building in La Crosse
19 voters registered at a newer single-family home in Outagamie County
359 voters registered at an address that hasn’t existed for 10 years in Kenosha County
625,000 dead voters on the rolls
4,300 voters with a “99999” zip code
670,000 inactive voters in Milwaukee
264,000 voters in Milwaukee with a 1918 registration date
20,000 voters with undeliverable mailing addresses in Milwaukee
3,400 FIDO (Fast Identity Online) keys that provide user access to the database have been distributed throughout the state

Statistics can be used to estimate how much fraud was going on by assuming certain detection rates, but even more important is the fact that there were not systems in place already to catch these clear and obvious signs of fraud. While the incompetence of government is often stunning, the inability to correlate death certificates with voter roles would be so incompetent that subversion is a better explanation, similar to the claim that voter ID is unacceptable because racial minorities can't figure out how to get an ID.

Note that in all three components I wrote "Novel" meaning this is a new factor in the 2020 election. This depth of propaganda fueled hatred for a candidate is new. The mass mail in ballots are new. The statistical indicators are new.

#19

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08.05.2023 08:18PM

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@ADreamOfLiberty

2000 Mule analysis (GPS appears to show mules making repeated routes from community centers to drop boxes)

This nonsense was debunked by Attorney General Barr

None of what you listed is evidence. That’s why it was soundly rejected by US courts after Trumps crackpot lawyers filed lawsuits.

The lawsuits were so absurd these lawyers have had their law licenses suspended

#20

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Posts: 3,074

08.07.2023 03:00AM

[IwantRooseveltagain] This nonsense was debunked by Attorney General Barr

Unlikely.

None of what you listed is evidence

Strangely I don't dismiss evidence because someone defines it as "not evidence".

That’s why it was soundly rejected by US courts after Trumps crackpot lawyers filed lawsuits.

Are courts infallible? Which court addressed this evidence?

The lawsuits were so absurd these lawyers have had their law licenses suspended

Or the civil war is so close lawyers aren't even allowed to make arguments anymore.

#21

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08.07.2023 08:53AM

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@ADreamOfLiberty

Strangely I don't dismiss evidence because someone defines it as "not evidence".

You probably would accept hearsay as evidence too

Which court addressed this evidence?

Multiple courts, including courts held by judges appointed by Trump. It can easily be googled.

Or the civil war is so close lawyers aren't even allowed to make arguments anymore.

so now the bar associations are also part of the “Deep State”. Of course.

#22

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