Moses & A Reed Basket, I Heard It All Before, Twice Before.

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  • Stephen
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    Moses & A Reed Basket, I Heard It All Before, Twice Before.

     Well as per usual we come upon yet another story in the Old Testament that was lifted clean out of the Mesopotamian legends.
    Yes, again we have yet another incomplete half story from our biblical scribes. It beginswith Exodus 2.1-10. A baby supposedly called Moses is hidden at the river’s edge among rushes and within a few verses he is a grown man and married to Zipporah.2:21.  Is all that we are told that he slew an Egyptian between for smiting a Hebrew 2:11-12.

    And the Mesopotamian Original:

    My changeling mother conceived me: In secret she bare me. She set me in a basket of rushes and with pitch she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river, which rose not over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of the water.
     Any who has studied ancient Mesopotamian tales will immediately recognise this story to be The Legend of Sharru -  kin, who became Sargon the Great 2371- 2316BC.
     
    There is also a similar legend that goes back further than this and  also from the Mesopotamian Records.

    The story goes that a Mesopotamian lord Ea/Enki, happened across two earthling females. Both these women were offspring of those that had been expelled hundreds of years before. The text tells us;

    “And into her [their] womb she [they] took the holy semen by the semen of the lord Enki she was impregnated”.

    But there seems to have been a taboo broken soEa/ Enki and his servant Isimud come up with a pr-arranged  cover story for if or when these (now pregnant) girls produce offspring, which they did. Isimud the servant tells Enki’s Wife Ninki and his brother Enlil;   He“found them”!
    among the bulrushes, in reed baskets have I them found. Ninki to the foundlings a likening took, as her own children he raised them. Adapa she called the foundling boy, the girl she called Titi”.

     This earlier legend, one shouldn’t fail to notice, is also reminiscent of the awkward passage theist try to avoid when the can.

    That the sons of God/s saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose..... There Were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.Genesis 6:2-4(KJV).


    This also seems to have been a taboo as for some odd reason; the god of the bible punishes man for the sins of the sons, his sons. This story then leads us up to the story of Noah also a Mesopotamian rip off.

    There seem to be many things wrong with this biblical story of Moses; such as , Why didn't anyone even query where on earth did this Princess obtain a child? No one questioned its parentage?
    Moses' father - in - law we are told Exodus 2:18-21 is called Reuel and only five verses later his name changed to Jethro. This to anyone studying these scriptures will not have failed to notice that this is how the Old Testament compilers managed to skip some 400 years of history by leaping not too cleverly, from Reuel, the son of Esau Genesis 36:4 to his descendant Jethro, lord of midian, many generations later.
     
     


  • Goldtop
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    --> @Stephen
    There seem to be many things wrong with this biblical story of Moses; such as , Why didn't anyone even query where on earth did this Princess obtain a child? No one questioned its parentage?
    Didn't anyone even notice the Princess was pregnant to begin with?

    Enki and his servant Isimud come up with a pr-arranged  cover story for if or when these (now pregnant) girls produce offspring, which they did. Isimud the servant tells Enki’s Wife Ninki and his brother Enlil;   He“found them”!
    among the bulrushes, in reed baskets have I them found


    That should call into question the heritage of Moses, who may have been Egyptian all along and not the son of a Hebrew slave.
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    There is no proof the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt . It's all myth. 
  • Mopac
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    Imagine if everytime an event was recorded that had a similarity to another event, we immediately assumed that the later event must be an untrue copy cat story.

    I wonder how many so called skeptic bobbleheads will say, "Oh this must be it!"

    No wait, I'm lying, I don't care.






  • keithprosser
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    I knew about the Sargon/Moses parallel.  The story of Moses has to be taken as legend rather than history and I don't think it is possible to ever know if the scribes responsile for commiting the Hebrews foundational myths to writing in the C6 BCE borrowed from the Sargon story or if it is co-incidental. 

    The other babylonian story I didn't know about, but myths and legends involving shennanigans between divinities and mortal women are common enough...It's a shame the Bible writers did not see fit to include some of the legends that the hebrews told each other about the heroic giant offsprings of those couplings!


  • Stephen
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    --> @Goldtop
    Enki and his servant Isimud come up with a pr-arranged  cover story for if or when these (now pregnant) girls produce offspring, which they did. Isimud the servant tells Enki’s Wife Ninki and his brother Enlil;   He“found them”!
    among the bulrushes, in reed baskets have I them found


    That should call into question the heritage of Moses, who may have been Egyptian all along and not the son of a Hebrew slave.
     Well when we read the scripture Moses  is actually said to be Egyptian!  I know, incredible.. LOOK>>


    Exodus 2:18-19
    18 And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day?
    19 And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water enough for us, and watered the flock.



  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    Most people would say the women mistook Moses to be an Egyptian, probably because he didn't look like an enslaved Hebrew.
     
  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    Most people would say the women mistook Moses to be an Egyptian,

    Is that one of your questions that you are asking without asking directly, prosser. Don't think I haven't noticed you doing this. 

    Yes I am sure he looked just like the princely specimen that he  was the day he left Egypt after traveling the parched desert for days or weeks. Midian was 285 miles  away from Egypt. Quite a distance, especially in a time when most transportation was by foot.


    probably because he didn't look like an enslaved Hebrew.


      Yes no doubt he had on the Princely fashion of the times . Strange though that he could speak to one (or another) of his father -  in - laws in Hebrew but had to have Aarron speak to the Israelites because he didn't know the language.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    You neglect it's a story, not a report of anything real.  In stories people can stay well groomed for weeks.  It just requires they take some narrativium with them.

  • Stephen
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    You neglect it's a story, not a report of anything real
     I prefer - actual - as opposed to real. Because I believe there are elements here that ring true. I think they "recognised him" (who ever he was and from whichever parentage he sprang) by  what he was holding and not by his attire. But it is only my pet theory. And as I have said often about these biblical narratives they are nearly all half stories. The name Moses , according to many authors who have researched the etymology tell us it is derived from the Egyptian word -  mose - (mosis in Greek) which relates to an offspring or heir to,  as in Tuthmose ( Tuthmosis); born of Thoth and Amenmose (Amenmose) born of Amen.
     So when we look at this then from the opinion of these learned and well studied authors we could conclude that this biblical "Moses" was probably of an Egyptian family and maybe even a blood royal  half breed? I think he went in exile  not because he killed an Egyptian  slave driver, but because he murdered someone else, his half brother maybe?

     I mean, would a   Prince and successful General really have to flee  because he killed a slave driver?




  • rosends
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    --> @Stephen
    That was Reu'el's (Jethro's) [grand] daughters reporting back in Midian. They would not have known any better because the man was an absolute stranger dressed as an Egyptian.
  • Stephen
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    --> @rosends

    That was Reu'el's (Jethro's) [grand] daughters reporting back in Midian. They would not have known any better because the man was an absolute stranger dressed as an Egyptian.
     No surprises there then.  I knew someone would jump on the prosser band wagon. See my response above post #8
    And where is your evidence for  Reuel  and Jethro being one and the same person?
  • rosends
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    --> @Stephen
    It isn't so much a band wagon as a response to your claim "Moses  is actually said to be Egyptian! " The text never says he was Egyptian -- only women from another country who would have seen how he was dressed called him Egyptian.

    As to the question of Reu'el's being Jethro, that is a matter of interpretation. IIRC correctly there is a verse which indicates that one was the father and one the son which is why I put the word "grand" in brackets.
  • Stephen
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    I put the word "grand" in brackets.


    From Reuel, the son of Esau Genesis 36:4 to his descendant Jethro, lord of Midian are many many generations later. Nearly 400 years worth. That is a serious mistake to make and a lot of biblical history skimmed over. which wouldn't be the first time the biblical scribes have done this, would it.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @rosends
    I can't find that.... but the name of moses's father in law is 'Reuel' in ch2 and 'Jethro' on ch3.

    Any number of theories for that, but its not exactly the most egregious example of the way the OT strings individual tales and anecdotes from seperate sources into one continuous narrative.  One presumes the writers did not expect the text to be so minutely scrtinised by outsiders!  Plus tippex hadn't been invented then.

  • rosends
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    Here are some resources on the commentaries regarding the identity of Reu'el, Yitro (and some other names)

  • keithprosser
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    --> @rosends
    To a disbeliever like me it is obvious that what has happened is the writers made a small slip and didn't harmonise the name of ipporah's father when they combined the old tales into the grand saga of the pentateuch.

    Believers invoke deaths, sons, levirite marriages and all sorts of complications!  
  • rosends
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    --> @keithprosser
    Very true (and there's loads more). Those of us who start with the belief that the text has to be right become contortionists to maintain that belief. It's an occupational hazard.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @rosends
    It's an occupational hazard.
    Beats getting a real job tho', eh?



  • rosends
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    --> @keithprosser
    Anything beats getting a real job unless that job is "lottery winner." I have applied for that one but haven't gotten it yet.
  • Stephen
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    Exodus 6: 16 - 20 suggests that the  parents of Moses were called Amram and Jochebed, the  thing here though is that the same passage tells us that, Amram was the grandson of Joseph's' brother Levi, which would appear to be well over  two centuries too early to have any connection to the historical Moses after he is  rescued from the river by the Egyptian Princess who no one questioned whatsoever about this fully grown son that she had "adopted" Exodus 2:10. 

     

    Would an Egyptian Princess, the most valuable members of Egyptian royalty (all heirs came via the matrilineal line)actually have been allowed to "adopt" an offspring of Hebrew !slaves"?  My guess is no.
  • Goldtop
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    --> @Stephen
    Well when we read the scripture Moses  is actually said to be Egyptian!
    I think the story goes is that after Moses was forced into exile, he was discovered and was wearing some Egyptian sandals, hence was assumed to be Egyptian. Of course, Moses never let on who he really was at first and played the role of a traveler who got lost in the desert.

  • Stephen
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    --> @Goldtop
    And don't forget of course that he was introduced to the Princesses father - none other than the Pharaoh himself -   as her fully grown son , named Moses who he had never met, made a Prince and not a single question asked about who his real parents were or even who his father  was? 

    I believe the bible writers have taken the story of a minor Egyptian Prince, maybe the offspring of a Pharaoh and a second "minor" wife, perhaps a Hebrew slave woman and "adopted" him as their saviour and liberator. Moses does have a lot in common with the heretic Pharaoh Akhenaten. 
  • Stephen
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    --> @Goldtop
     and was wearing some Egyptian sandals

    Yes these girls at the well, spotted the Made in Egypt tag written in hieroglyphs . Yes, a dead giveaway that was.













  • Goldtop
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    --> @Stephen
    Most folks went bare foot back then because of the heat and the fact sandals were an unnecessary expense. It was the sandals that gave themselves away. Anyone with any knowledge of what people wore back then would know they were Egyptian.