Dr. Hotez is a coward for not debating RFK Jr.

Author: Slainte

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Slainte
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Over $1.5M has been pledged for Hotez's  charity of choice if he debates JFK Jr. on Joe Rogans show, about the COVID vaccines, and vaccines in general.

Hotez is refusing to do it, because he says it is the same thing are arguing against a holocaust denier.  So a man of "science" wont engage in a debate, earning $1.5M for a charity, on the largest podcast platform in the world.

He is a coward, and has undermined his integrity and position.
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@Slainte
wont engage in a debate, earning $1.5M for a charity
Fair point. I would argue against a holocaust denier for $1.5 million, even if they were a complete loon.
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Fair point. I would argue against a holocaust denier for $1.5 million, even if they were a complete loon.

That seems like an easy $1.5M to rake in.
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I picture the actual debate looking a lot like the conversation between Dr. Carl Hart and Bill O'Reilly.
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If Joe Rogan Asks You to Debate, Be Suspicious
Analysis by Tyler Cowen | Bloomberg

As an economist who is skeptical of MMT, also known as Modern Monetary Theory, I am often urged to take part in a public debate with its advocates. I routinely decline, in part because I cannot answer “yes” to this question: Will this debate bring us closer to the truth?

It is something everyone should ask themselves before engaging in open discourse of any kind, on any subject.

The most common (and correct) criticism of MMT, presented by Paul Krugman and Larry Summers, is simply that its advocates have never presented a coherent model showing how their arguments fit together. But repeating that basic point is not so effective in a public debate, especially if MMT advocates are making all kinds of specific claims about inflation, interest rates and deficits. A lot of macroeconomics is counterintuitive anyway, so mere verbal sallies do not settle whether a particular set of claims is valid.

Rather than staging a debate, it is better to ask MMT advocates to outline their claims more formally — and then to push those claims through peer review. Then we can see what the evidence indicates.

Crypto is another area where public debates can be misleading. It is easy to find a long list of frauds and fraudsters associated with crypto, and to present their offenses to a receptive crowd. The skeptic can then challenge whether crypto has any legitimate uses at all. The best rejoinder — many innovations end up being useful in ways that are not immediately evident — is not exactly guaranteed to wow the audience, despite its validity.

Existential risk from super-smart artificial general intelligence (AGI) is another topic on which public debate is unlikely to land upon the truth. The most extreme worriers can present a long list of concerns, and then ask their disputants to prove that the risk from AGI is zero or non-zero. In any case, a captive public audience is likely to go away worried. Vivid disaster scenarios are often easier to communicate and more memorable than an explanation of how, through decentralized systems and checks and balances, things might work out fine.

A better approach is to ask AGI worriers to act like climate scientists. That is, they should formally model their arguments, present those models for peer review, and then test those models against incoming data. Just how robust are predictions of doom in a world where most individuals and institutions will invest their resources in cooperative AI?

Perhaps the AGI worriers will show they have a point. But in the meantime, slinging arguments back and forth will make their doom scenarios look more plausible than they probably are.

Recently, Joe Rogan offered to donate $100,000 to a charity of vaccine scientist Peter Hotez’s choice if he appeared on his podcast to debate presidential candidate and longstanding vaccine skeptic Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Most scientists consider the major questions settled — and not in Kennedy’s favor.

Of course people should always be open to revising their views. But a public debate is not a sufficiently structured setting for adjudicating right from wrong on these issues. The claims of vaccine skeptics generally have not held up when confronted with data and methodological critiques. Instead, the skeptics tend to rely on unverified anecdotes or misunderstandings of the data.

There is a justifiable argument that the peer review process itself is unfair. Yet scientific rebels, from the late Nobel economics laureate Robert E. Lucas to mRNA vaccine scientists, have managed to use it to persuade others. Despite its faults, the peer review process does help to strengthen arguments.

As a general rule, one should not debate publicly with conspiracy theorists. Some conspiracies may be true and should not be dismissed out of hand. But any discussion needs to start by demanding the best available documented evidence, and then subjecting it to rigorous scrutiny. This is very often impossible to do in a public debate, where the unverified anecdote is elevated and methodological issues are obscured or unexamined. Furthermore, it takes more time to rebut a charge than to level it, and in the meantime the rebutter has no choice but to repeat some of the other side’s talking points.

So when someone demands a public debate on an issue, be suspicious. Why can’t the supposed truth be established by other means? Is it really helpful to throw so many scientific questions into the boiling cauldron of our delightful but chaotic culture of public debate? It may not be realistic, and it would definitely not be as exciting, but in many cases a better use of public resources would be to spend $100,000 on a panel of experts to summarize the best available evidence.



ponikshiy
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The problem is not that the conspiracy theorist needs to be disproven. It is that Hotez has some extraordinary claims that are unsupported and he wants to take as fact. It is easy to disprove that vaccines cause autism, but Hotez making claims like every man woman and child no matter how young or old should be vaccinated for Covid19 is harder to prove. If he refuses to debate than the media will continue to not challenge his ridiculous claims and only highlight conspiracy theorists who disagree with him. 

Essentially it helps to strawman his opponents by not engaging them and o ly engaging with silly conspiracies
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@DavidAZ
Is he a coward or just paid enough to keep his mouth shut about the things he is paid to say?
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@Savant
The Famous American pediatrician “Peter Hotez” has a net worth of $40 Million. According to various online resources (Wikipedia, Forbes, Bloomberg), the most famous American pediatrician Peter Hotez estimated net worth is around $40 Million.
When your net worth is this big, 1.5 million is a token's worth. Peter probably doesn't need a handout from some moron.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Peter probably doesn't need a handout from some moron.
I'll take the money if he doesn't want it.
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@Sir.Lancelot
When your net worth is this big, 1.5 million is a token's worth. Peter probably doesn't need a handout from some moron.
It is not from "some moron". Many people pooled together.  And this is not a gift to Peter, it is for a charity of his choice.  So all he has to do is defend his position, and his charity gets $1.5M. 

I would suck a donkey dick in the middle of time square if I knew a charity I believed in would get $1.5M
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@oromagi
The article makes an interesting point

Rather than staging a debate, it is better to ask MMT advocates to outline their claims more formally — and then to push those claims through peer review. Then we can see what the evidence indicates.

However it then says

Most scientists consider the major questions settled 

What major questions are settled?  The author is literally assuming that there is nothing to debate, and therefore not worthy of a conversation.  That is contrary to the first point.  Bring the issues out.  

The principal of science is discourse.  It is inspection and discussion.  It is looking at all sides and all issues.   Despite what Neil DeGrasse Tyson,  science is not consensus.  Science is discovery, discourse, asking questions and continuously trying to prove your earlier theories wrong.  That is science.
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@ponikshiy
That was a very Non-Russian.
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@zedvictor4
We can talk about what we want in Russia. We just can't do it with any sort of platform
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@ponikshiy
No.

What I meant was.

You went from phoney Russian English to perfect English.
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@zedvictor4
Sometimes I get it right. Sometimes not. Also I use GIGachat when I feel what I say is completely incomprehensible.  It is like having personal translateor and editor. 
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@Slainte
What major questions are settled? 
  • Between RFK Jr and the NIH?  I think RFK's main complaints can be summed up as
    • Vaccines are the principle cause of autism
    • AIDS is not related to the HIV virus
    • Ivermectin cures COVID
    • NIH concealed known COVID cures
    • Anthony Fauci conspired  w/ the GOP to overthrow democracy in the 2020 election and take the vote away from black people.
I do think scientific consensus considers all of these questions generally unworthy of further expenditures of resources.


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@oromagi
My friend, this is the issue:  (emphasis added

  • Between RFK Jr and the NIH?  I think RFK's main complaints can be summed up as
Perhaps to your previous point, we could let RFK Jr. actually put his questions out, rather than surmise.  Have you read RFK Jr's book the Real Anthony Fauci?  Hav e you cross referenced the sources in his book?  I have, and he brings up some very valid questions that do need answering.  Vaccines an autism...  some serious questions.  Check out this three minute deposition with an "expert". 


Secondly you state

I do think scientific consensus considers all of these questions generally unworthy of further expenditures of resources.
Define scientific consensus.  Since when is consensus science?  How did that work out for earth being the centre of the universe.  For the fact that there could not be living organisms at the bottom of the sea, the development of understanding quantum mechanics.

Correct me if I am misquoting you, as I am not trying to do that.  It appears you are saying that when there is a critical mass (an undefined one) that then renders any other conversation or opinion not worthy of exploration. For clarity, I am not trying to be combative and trying to define things properly.  Thank you for your engagement in this conversation, and for the respect you show.

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@oromagi
Between RFK Jr and the NIH? I think RFK's main complaints can be summed up as
Vaccines are the principle cause of autism
AIDS is not related to the HIV virus
Ivermectin cures COVID
NIH concealed known COVID cures
Anthony Fauci conspired w/ the GOP to overthrow democracy in the 2020 election and take the vote away from black people.
I do think scientific consensus considers all of these questions generally unworthy of further expenditures of resources.
I dont think this is an excuse to not examine the more radical claims of Hotez. He is being allowed to make them because the focus is on his ideological opponent's silly claims. 

Besides, more people watch Joe Rogan than they do news. Perhaps he can convince some people scared to vaccinate their children to change their minds.


oromagi
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we could let RFK Jr. actually put his questions out, rather than surmise. 
  • Nobody's stopping him. Your complaint is that you can't force or bribe one particulary well recognized scientist to lend Kennedy credibility.
Vaccines an autism...  some serious questions.  Check out this three minute deposition with an "expert". 
I'm surprised you fell for that bullshit.  So... if I made a video of a depostion with a prestigious epidemiologist where I asked, "How many clinical trials were designed to rule out that gun ownership causes genital warts and the prestigious epidemiologist said, "none," I guess you would follow your same logic again and conclude that there must be something to this whole gun warts  conspiracy because otherwise what is the government covering up by never spending millions of dollars to determine whether guns cause warts or not?

Let's note that this website was bannned as medical disinformation on Facebook and Twitter.  ICAN/Highwire sued over the ban and lost badly in court  That is, judges have reviewed the testimony you submitted, noted the  game  the plaintiff's lawyer played and called bullshit.

I will assume you are aware that the whole "vaccines cause autism" belief system arises from the great Lancet MMR autism fraud of 1998 perpetrated by Wakefield, et al., one of the most throroughly debunked scientific claims of this or that century, the scientists took cash from 12 parents suing vaccinne makers and manufactured evidence of a link.  Because of this fraud, science has now spent a lot of money establishing for a fact that no legitimate statistical link between autism (which is itself a subjective claims based on some pretty loose criteria.  What many good doctors call autism, many good doctors won't.  There is no objective test or common symptom that makes autism autism.  The increase in autism is pretty well explained by our setting of a loose standard for what is autism and the more recent perception of autism as a scale of symptoms, a shades of grey disease where many more higher fuctioning autistic people were perceived and recorded. 

The CDC is unusually unequivocal in its rejection of the claim:

Autism and Vaccines
Questions and Concerns
Autism spectrum disorder (ASD)is a developmental disability that can cause significant social, communication, and behavioral challenges. Recent estimates from CDC’s Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network found that about 1 in 44 children have been identified with ASD in communities across the United States. CDC is committed to providing essential data on ASD, searching for causes of and factors that increase the risk for ASD, and developing resources that help identify children with ASD as early as possible.

Vaccines do not cause autism.

Some people have had concerns that ASD might be linked to the vaccines children receive, but studies have shown that there is no link between receiving vaccines and developing ASD. The National Academy of Medicine, formerly known as Institute of Medicine, reviewed the safety of 8 vaccines to children and adults. The review found that with rare exceptions, these vaccines are very safe.

Source: Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality [Institute of Medicine. 2012]external icon

A CDC study published in 2013 added to the research showing that vaccines do not cause ASD. The study focused on the number of antigens given during the first two years of life. Antigens are substances in vaccines that cause the body’s immune system to produce disease-fighting antibodies. The results showed that the total amount of antigen from vaccines received was the same between children with ASD and those that did not have ASD.

Source: Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism [J Pediatr. 2013]external icon
Vaccine ingredients do not cause autism.

One vaccine ingredient that has been studied specifically is thimerosal. Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative used to prevent germs (like bacteria and fungi) from contaminating multidose vials of vaccines. Research shows that thimerosal does not cause ASD. In fact, a 2004 scientific review by the IOM concluded that “the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal–containing vaccines and autism.”

Source: Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism [The National Academies Press. 2004]external icon

Since 2003, there have been nine CDC-funded or conducted studies that have found no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD. These studies also found no link between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and ASD in children. Learn more about the CDC Studies on Thimerosal in Vaccines pdf icon[PDF – 2 pages].

Even before studies showed that thimerosal was not harmful, there was a national effort to reduce all types of mercury exposures in children. As precaution, thimerosal was removed or reduced to trace amounts in all childhood vaccines between 1999 and 2001. Currently, the only type of vaccine that contain thimerosal are flu vaccines packaged in multidose vials. There are thimerosal-free alternatives available for flu vaccine. For more information, see the Timeline for Thimerosal in Vaccines.

Besides thimerosal, some people have had concerns about other vaccine ingredients in relation to ASD. However, no links have been found between any vaccine ingredients and ASD.

Define scientific consensus. 
  • WIKIPEDIA defines SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS as:

Scientific consensus is the generally held judgment, position, and opinion of the majority or the supermajority of scientists in a particular field of study at any particular time.

Consensus is achieved through scholarly communication at conferences, the publication process, replication of reproducible results by others, scholarly debate, and peer review. A conference meant to create a consensus is termed as a consensus conference.  Such measures lead to a situation in which those within the discipline can often recognize such a consensus where it exists; however, communicating to outsiders that consensus has been reached can be difficult, because the "normal" debates through which science progresses may appear to outsiders as contestation.  On occasion, scientific institutes issue position statements intended to communicate a summary of the science from the "inside" to the "outside" of the scientific community, or consensus review articles  or surveys may be published. In cases where there is little controversy regarding the subject under study, establishing the consensus can be quite straightforward.

Popular or political debate on subjects that are controversial within the public sphere but not necessarily controversial within the scientific community may invoke scientific consensus: note such topics as evolution,  climate change, the safety of genetically modified organisms, or the lack of a link between MMR vaccinations and autism.
  • Get that?  There is so little controversy within the ranks of expert study that MMR and autism are unrelated that lack of uncertainty is  used in the WIkipedia article as one classic example of how overwhelming majorities of expert opinions can decertify insubstantial claims.
Since when is consensus science?
  • It's not.  
Correct me if I am misquoting you, as I am not trying to do that.  It appears you are saying that when there is a critical mass (an undefined one) that then renders any other conversation or opinion not worthy of exploration.
  • You have me wrong: go ahead and explore your theory that a whole bunch of very different vaccines all cause the same hazy, untestable , incurable, indefinable set of symptoms, just don't waste any more of the taxpayer's money on that bullshit because the taxpayers have already paid the best scientists in the world to look into and come back saying with confidence there is no link there to investigate.  
  • Likewise, Kennedy may spew his sick deceits on Joe Rogan for twenty days straight for all i care.  It is not as if either has any credibility with scientists.  Rogan regularly begs his audience to not trust him or his guests.
  • I just think it kind of stinks to call a famous pediatrician, a well respected man,  a coward for not wanting to lend creedence to the lies you are longing to believe.  Think about it:  rational men don't listen to Joe Rogan's show:  crackpots do.  Lot's of them.  What are the odds a career lobbyist can charm a low info crowd like Rogan's better than a  dull man of science?   Hell, here's a Kennedy's Kennedy claiming the CIA is trying to assasinate him.  The low-infoids are going to eat that shit up.  
  • Even if Hotez kicks ass in a debate, nobody who listens to Joe Rogan is going to be persuaded by truth and evidence at this point.  For Kennedy, that kind of public credibility is worth more than $1.5 million to his career, however he argues and knowing that  for Hotez, the harm to his scientific reputation  just for going on Rogan might cost his career worse than $1.5 million worth.



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Let's note that this website was banned as medical disinformation ...
Just as consensus isn't science, censorship isn't science either.
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@ponikshiy
Perhaps he can convince some people scared to vaccinate their children to change their minds.
In fact, by censoring the science, Hotez is only creating more vaccine hesitancy.

Clearly his net wealth is more important to him than his pretend stance on public welfare.

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In fact, by censoring the science, Hotez is only creating more vaccine hesitancy.
  • Please explain how Dr Hotez is "censoring the science"

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@Slainte
If you aren't allowed to question it, it isn't science.
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@Slainte
@IwantRooseveltagain
I would suck a donkey dick in the middle of time square if I knew a charity I believed in would get $1.5M
Woah!  Don't say that too loud.  I think I hear IwantRooseveltagain braying in New York.

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@oromagi
  • Please explain how Dr Hotez is "censoring the science"
Science is the art of discovery through investigation, experimentation and discourse.  Dr. Hotez has put himself in the centre of the limelight as a fact authority with respect to COVID and Vaccines.

On his interview with Joe Rogan, when Joe asked a question,  He said "don't know".  times on serious questions.  FANTASTIC!!   Then lets be open and discuss and share our thoughts and knowledge

  • At  8:02. Joe asks about ibuprofin, Hotez says I don't know and responds with an aspirin answer
  • At 15:06 Joe asks about vaping, and the answer is we don't know
  • At 29:29 Joe asks why people tet negative then positive, and the answer was "I don't know"
  • at 39:47 Hotez says we don't know what is going to happen in rural areas and emphasizes social distancing, for which there is no scientific basis for the 6 foot rule, and the CDC admit social distancing was pure guess work.
In March 2020, Hotez describes the "unique potential safety problem of coronavirus vaccines", and a year later says "they are safe and highly effective"

In July 2021 Hotez says they had been working on coronavirus vaccines 10 years ago.  and the vaccines have gone through as rigorous a process as any vaccine that we’ve ever released to the public.”   Complete lies.

In March of 2023 Hotez says that there was so much emphasis on speed and innovation, and the focus was on new shiny toys

Anything counter to what Hotez says, which changes like the weather, is right wing, disinformation.   He wont talk about anything he disagress with or not part of his agenda.    That is censorship.
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@Slainte
Dr Fauci would be a more appropriate person to debate vaccines. Or possibly Dr Scott Gottlieb.

But only a moron watches Joe Rogan to get information 
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@Slainte
when Joe asked a question,
you mean when Joe asked a STUPID question 

Idiots like you claim the vaccine makes you magnetic.

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@Slainte
->
@<<<oromagi>>>
  • Please explain how Dr Hotez is "censoring the science"
Science is the art of discovery through investigation, experimentation and discourse.  Dr. Hotez has put himself in the centre of the limelight as a fact authority with respect to COVID and Vaccines.

On his interview with Joe Rogan, when Joe asked a question,  He said "don't know".  times on serious questions.  FANTASTIC!!   Then lets be open and discuss and share our thoughts and knowledge

  • At  8:02. Joe asks about ibuprofin, Hotez says I don't know and responds with an aspirin answer
  • At 15:06 Joe asks about vaping, and the answer is we don't know
  • At 29:29 Joe asks why people tet negative then positive, and the answer was "I don't know"
  • at 39:47 Hotez says we don't know what is going to happen in rural areas and emphasizes social distancing, for which there is no scientific basis for the 6 foot rule, and the CDC admit social distancing was pure guess work.
In March 2020, Hotez describes the "unique potential safety problem of coronavirus vaccines", and a year later says "they are safe and highly effective"

In July 2021 Hotez says they had been working on coronavirus vaccines 10 years ago.  and the vaccines have gone through as rigorous a process as any vaccine that we’ve ever released to the public.”   Complete lies.

In March of 2023 Hotez says that there was so much emphasis on speed and innovation, and the focus was on new shiny toys

Anything counter to what Hotez says, which changes like the weather, is right wing, disinformation.   He wont talk about anything he disagress with or not part of his agenda.    That is censorship.
  • I think we have identified the problem.  You don't understand what the word CENSORSHIP means.  None of the above describes CENSORSHIP in any sense of the word.
  • CENSORSHIP is "The use of state power to control freedom of expression or press."
    • Dr. Hotez has no government position
    • Dr. Hotez has never prevented Rogan or Kennedy from speaking, he just freely expresses his opinion that Rogan and Kennedy are corrupt, foolish, and deluded.
  • I won't waste my time getting into the weeds here but I'm not likely to  fault any medical professional for changes and reversals in recommendations in the face of new diseases.  Real scientists say what they know and don't know as honestly as possible and change their stories as their understanding evolves.
In July 2021 Hotez says they had been working on coronavirus vaccines 10 years ago.  and the vaccines have gone through as rigorous a process as any vaccine that we’ve ever released to the public.”   Complete lies.
  • It is this statement that causes me to think that (even without getting into specific claims) that Dr. Hotez is probably a lot better informed than you are. 
  • In fact, scientists have been working on coronavirus vaccines since the 1980's  After the SARS outbreak of 2004 scientists predicted that SARS like outbreaks would increase in frequency and virulity so long as increases in human population heightened the  frequency of  zoonotic cross-species exposures and so the International scientific community recommended building the Wuhan Institute of Virology as a coronavirus-specific watchtower, laboratory, reference library.  By 2008, they understood the mRNA structure sufficiently to theorize how a vaccine might be rapidly developed using a relatively limited set of genetic substitutions, even Governments and investors were so impressed by the possiblities that infrastructure began to anticipate the next SARS (as well as develop mRNA therapies in cancer, etc with some suprising success.  Biontech and Moderna were purpose built mRNA labs becoming expert at such substitutions.  So yes, in 2010, experts like Dr Hotez not only knew how science would develop a vaccine against the next SARS-like virus to emerge in humans, they could tell you which labs and which scientists were most likely to develop that vaccinne and estimated it would only take two or three years to develop.    That is how well understood and pre-tested the COVID-19 vaccinne was with pretty good confidence years before they even knew the exact whens or hows that coronavirus would emerge.


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@IwantRooseveltagain
People watch Joe Rogan because he is a great interviewer.  Most smart people assemble opinions based on multiple pieces of information or opinions.