What's the strongest argument for atheism?

Author: Fallaneze

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#211
Fallaneze
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@keithprosser
By itself the human moral conscience would have no meaning. If someone were to subjectively ascribe a meaning of doing opposite of what their conscience says, however, then the empty void of their instrincically meaningless conscience has been filled with this purely subjective meaning. 
#212
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@Fallaneze
Discomfort from their conscience would be like indigestion after eating tacos. ca
Why not?  Your guts don't send the message 'your stomach ph is out of range' - it just gives you tummy ache.  
Your conscience gives you a differnt sort if ache about rape.

Pain evolved because it can be used to modify beaviour without needing too much in the way of higher mental powers.   Critters evolved to avoid what was bad for them because they hurt, not because they understood why they were bad for them or could grasp the concept of 'bad for you'.

Pesumably whatever the seeming upside of rape is, it is not good for the species so we evoled to feel asort of mental pain to help block doing it.



#213
TwoMan
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@keithprosser
Presumably whatever the seeming upside of rape is, it is not good for the species so we evolved to feel a sort of mental pain to help block doing it.
Do you think that the human conscience is strictly an instinctual, evolutionary thing or is it societal and learned? Or a combination of those things? I lean towards a bigger mix of societal and learned.

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@secularmerlin
Skepticism isn't a worldview though
Neither is atheism.

👏👏👏

/end thread

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#215
Fallaneze
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@SkepticalOne
Belief that God doesn't exist is a worldview and is considered atheism though. So atheism can be a worldview. 

/not end of thread 


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Fallaneze
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@TwoMan
... or does it correspond to something higher than ourselves? Just a thought 
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#217
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@keithprosser
There shouldn't be any rationale as to why we evolved a conscience because evolution is a mindless process without any aims or goals.
#218
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@TwoMan
Where do you think meaning comes from? It takes a mind to give something meaning otherwise as many here have pointed out it is just "quanta". "Qualia" is the meaning given to "quanta".
Bingo.
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@Fallaneze
... or does it correspond to something higher than ourselves? Just a thought 
Since I am not a theist, the probability I give that possibility is low.
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@Fallaneze
There shouldn't be any rationale as to why we evolved a conscience because evolution is a mindless process without any aims or goals.
Evolution selects for survival.
#221
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@Fallaneze
"Atheism" might narrowly be defined as a belief god does not exist, but that is not an all-encompassing definition. Atheism includes non-belief in gods, which is skepticism, and is not a worldview. In my opinion, this is the position of most atheist. Maybe you meant to ask about a particular form of atheism rather than atheism itself? 
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@TwoMan
Obviously we are born with the basic mechanism in place, but i think we must pick up our moral values from our environment. 

For humans it's more like  'survival of the society' than 'survival of the species' that counts so each of us has to learn the rules and conventions that obtain in our particular society.
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#223
Fallaneze
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@SkepticalOne
Atheism is defined as lack of belief or disbelief in the existence of God or gods. So atheism, as a worldview, is one-part of a two-part definition. It is as "narrow" or "particular"  as the other part meaning lacking belief in God. I agree with you that most atheists identify themselves with lacking belief in God but where I'd disagree is that atheists who identify themselves this way don't find it more probable that God doesn't exist. They're simply hiding behind one part of the defintion while holding the other to be true. In any case, I don't think declaring the thread "over" because someone said atheism is not a worldview was warranted because it in fact can be.
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@Fallaneze
most atheists identify themselves with lacking belief in God but where I'd disagree is that atheists who identify themselves this way don't find it more probable that God doesn't exist.
That may be true. However, there is more than one kind of God in which not to believe. There is the notion of deism which would solve the paradox of existence but is only one of an unknown number of possibilities. I give that theory a higher probability than that of theism which provides no evidence of any personal interaction between God and sentient beings. Rather than thinking of it as a complete lack of belief, I consider each possibility to have a higher or lower probability.
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@SkepticalOne
"Atheism" might narrowly be defined as a belief god does not exist, but that is not an all-encompassing definition.
There's lot of things I don't believe in - Feng shui, magic crystals, lay lines, gods, the tooth fairy, horoscopes, yetis.. there's more but you get the point.  atheism is incidental to my worldview, not central to it.


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#226
Fallaneze
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@keithprosser
Is it really as outlandish to believe that there's a creator of the universe as it is to believe in yetis and the tooth fairy though? You have to keep in mind that some of the most brilliant people throughout history have believed in God.
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Believing that a God exists is more probable than tooth fairies (in my opinion) but without evidence remains speculation.
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@Fallaneze
They're simply hiding behind one part of the defintion while holding the other to be true.

I don't find this to be true.  I think most self-proclaimed atheists readily acknowledge they believe 'revealed' gods (or the gods of religions) don't exist.  However, this is not the same as believing in the non-existence of all gods including deistic or otherwise unknown/unrevealed gods. People can hold different views on different god concepts and this isn't being deceptive.

In any case, I don't think declaring the thread "over" because someone said atheism is not a worldview was warranted because it in fact can be.
It was a little snarky, I'll admit.  I do think it undercuts the hidden premise ("atheism is a worldview") and reveals the OP absurd though.
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@keithprosser
atheism is incidental to my worldview, not central to it.
+1

#230
TwoMan
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On another forum there was an argument about whether atheism is a belief system. Atheists generally argued no, theists generally argued yes. Since atheism is not a set of beliefs nor does it necessarily lead to one, I said no.

Theism includes and/or leads to a set of beliefs and in that respect is a belief system.

Does deism lead to a set of beliefs and therefore become a belief system? I don't think so. What do you all think?
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#231
Fallaneze
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@SkepticalOne
I think only a very small minority of atheists actually have no belief either way as to whether any God exists.

"Atheism is a worldview" is just as correct as saying "atheism is not a worldview" because the term "atheism" has both meanings embedded within it. I don't see any problem with asking what the strongest argument for atheism is. 

In mainstream philosophy, "lacking belief in God" is a rejected definition of atheism.  

Here's why:

"1. Definitions of “Atheism”

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods."





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#232
Fallaneze
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@TwoMan
If you believe that God does not exist it does set certain boundaries for logical coherency. It makes much more sense for an atheist to be a physicalist than an idealist. It would make no sense if an atheist believed that human beings have intrinsic worth. It would not make sense for an atheist to believe that nature has any sort of purpose. It wouldn't make sense to believe that consciousness is fundamental.
#233
TwoMan
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@Fallaneze
If you believe that God does not exist it does set certain boundaries for logical coherency. It makes much more sense for an atheist to be a physicalist than an idealist.
I don't see how atheism promotes one over the other.

It would make no sense if an atheist believed that human beings have intrinsic worth.
Intrinsic worth can be self determined.

It would not make sense for an atheist to believe that nature has any sort of purpose.
If you mean a sense of purpose other than to continue to live and flourish, possibly.

It wouldn't make sense to believe that consciousness is fundamental.
Perhaps not for a hard atheist, but an agnostic can accept that as a possibility.
#234
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@Fallaneze
It makes much more sense for an atheist to be a physicalist than an idealist.
I would grant a link between atheism and physicalism, but which is the cause and which the effect?
Do people wake up one morning thinking:
a) there are no gods therefore the universe is mechanical or
b) the universe is mechanical therefore there are no gods.

For me it was certainly b.


#235
disgusted
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@Fallaneze
Atheism is defined as lack of belief or disbelief in the existence of God or gods
And since gods have no place in the world it is not a world view, it is a rejection of the unsupportable man made claim that gods exist.

#236
SkepticalOne
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@Fallaneze
That's one view of atheism.  Its not one that I accept though. As Keith says, "atheism is incidental to my worldview, not central to it.". I think this sums up my view as well. 
#237
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The Ultimate Reality exists.

The best argument for atheism is ignorance.

#238
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@Fallaneze
You have to keep in mind that some of the most brilliant people throughout history have believed in God.

Argument from authority. A common logical fallacy. I am also still waiting on your suggested method of testing for a transcendental object or force.
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#239
Fallaneze
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@secularmerlin
I'm not basing a conclusion off of it, so it's not an argument from authority. If belief in God is as fanciful as belief in tooth fairies or other magical creatures it should call into question why the world's most brilliant minds (including scientists) held such an irrational belief in God.
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@Fallaneze
Why anyone believes is unimportant. When I say there is equal evidence of god(s) and other mythological figures such as Santa clause or big foot it is unconnected with anyone's beliefs and so those beliefs are irrelevant unless accompanied by sufficient evidence. Belief is not evidence in and of itself. That means if you bring it up you are making an argument from authority.

I'm still waiting on your suggested method of testing.