Instigator / Con
Dynasty's avatar
4
Dynasty
1411
rating
11
debates
13.64%
won
Topic
#2369

Does Numbers 31 mention sex slavery?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Ibn_HAM
Tags
Religion
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Pro
Ibn_HAM's avatar
7
Ibn_HAM
1513
rating
1
debates
100.0%
won
Description

Does Numbers 31 mention sex slavery? Let's see if the evidence points to that idea.

The 5 rules of this debate are.

1. Don't insult your opponent.
2. Stay on topic.
3. Provide evidence.
4. Don't commit logical fallacies.
5. Don't declare victory when you haven't won.

Round 1
Dynasty's avatar
Dynasty
Con
#1
Can you argue on why Numbers 31 is about sex slavery?
Ibn_HAM's avatar
Ibn_HAM
Pro
#2
yes the numbers 31 is about sex with little girls 

first, let's take this step by step  

you tall me where did I get that the virgin girls where children, will the answer are here 

The Hebrew word “taf (taphi) according to Lexicons.
An English and Hebrew Lexicon – Professor Selig Newman:
“CHILD , an INFANT … טַף… an offspring,… get with-……” (An English and Hebrew lexicon composed after Johnson’s directory, containing fifteen thousand English words, rendered into Biblical, or rabbinical Hebrew, or into Chaldee. To which is annexed a list of English and Hebrew words the expressions and meanings of which appear to be the same in both languages (1832), by Professor Selig Newman page 61)
A complete Hebrew-English pocket-dictionary to the Old Testament (1905) – Karl Feyerabend:
“טַף (TAF) ., i.p. .., w.s…. coll. CHILDREN, LITTLE ONES. (A complete Hebrew-English pocket-dictionary to the Old Testament (1905]) By Karl Feyerabend page 118)
A Compendious Hebrew-Lexicon – Samuel Pike:
“טַף LITTLE ONES or CHILDREN… mincing in a childish manner, Isai. Iii. 16. –… to drop, or distil… to prophecy, or distil instruction, Micah ii. 6, 11.” (A Compendious Hebrew Lexicon, Adapted to the English Language, and Composed upon A New and Commodious Plan [Second Edition (1811)] by Samuel Pike page 59)

and you ask where does it talk about sex  here 

“R. ELIEZER B. JACOB SAID: A PROSELYTE [etc.}. It was taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai said: A female proselyte less than three years and a day is ELIBLE to the priesthood, as it is said: But all the women children … keep alive for yourselves; now, was not Phineas among them? But the Rabbis [interpret] ‘KEEP THEM ALIVE FOR YOUR SELVES’ AS bondwomen AND BONDWOMEN. (Talmud – Mas. Kiddushin 78a:45 – page 261 – 262, online source) 
Round 2
Dynasty's avatar
Dynasty
Con
#3
Introduction
Does Numbers 31 mention sex slavery? Well, the short answer no, and long answer no. Let me explain why.
 
My argument
There is no evidence for sex slavery to be in Numbers 31, in fact, that must be read into the text. Basing on Bible commentary.
Reformation Study Bible – “31:13–18 Moses’ command that all the women who were not virgins must be killed was due to the immorality at Peor. All males were killed, including children, probably to prevent any resurgence of the Midianite clans (cf. v. 7).”
 
And these videos as well.
Michael Heiser - The Historical Context of Numbers 31 (Naked Bible Podcast) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxcxQJYYsD4
Answering Muslims: Numbers 31:18 and Islamic Paradise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXbAhy3rKU4
 
Refutations
“What about the non-virgins!”
As the commentary I cited, the reason why they were killed, is because of sexual immorality.
 
“What about the men and boys!”
Again, As the commentary I cited says, to avoid an uprising of the Midianites.
 
“Jesus was mention in Number 31:40!”
No, it does not. In fact, if you read the passage, it does not mention him anywhere.
 
Conclusion
Numbers 31 does not mention sex slavery. And that must be read into the text. So, hope my opponent response to those arguments that I made.

Sources:
Michael Heiser - The Historical Context of Numbers 31 (Naked Bible Podcast) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxcxQJYYsD4
Answering Muslims: Numbers 31:18 and Islamic Paradise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXbAhy3rKU4

Ibn_HAM's avatar
Ibn_HAM
Pro
#4
introduction:
yes of course numbers31 talks about sex with little girls   as I have statued before from Jewish and christens  scholars that Jesus according to trinity logic is the one orders   the girls to be alive as bondwoman  (Talmud – Mas. Kiddushin 78a:45 – page 261 – 262, online source)

my argument:
my point still stands there is little evidence from the other side about the fate of the girls at the hands of Jesus man
  “I do not know why the new Jewish version omits ‘for yourselves’; the Hebrew LAKHEM IS UNAMBIGUOUS. That the intent of ‘FOR YOURSELVES’ IS SEXUAL OR MATRIMONIAL IS OBVIOUS; the passage is correctly understood by Rabbi Simeon Yohai in the Sifrei ad loc (177 212H).” (The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties [University of California Press, Berkeley / Los Angeles / London, The Regents of the University of California, 1999] by Shaye J. D. Cohen [chapter 8] page 255 – 256 – [Footnote 52])


Refutation:
as for the baby males being killed because they could do uprising of the Midianites this is, not a good argument to defend children being killed  because children can not  do that,  and why cant Jesus take them in and make them into good people like he did ith paul every one deserve a chance  


Conclusion:
yes numbers 31 is talking about sex with little children 


Sources:  

Round 3
Dynasty's avatar
Dynasty
Con
#5
Refutation of Master.NO's arguments.

yes of course numbers31 talks about sex with little girls
No, Numbers 31 doesn't talk about sex with little girls, since I have provided evidence for why isn't doesn't talk about that. And, isn't the Tulmad written way after Numbers was written? Also, don't rabbis (Like they did with Rebecca's age) add stuff into the text? Just thought of pointing that out to you.


my point still stands there is little evidence from the other side about the fate of the girls at the hands of Jesus man
Actually it doesn't, since I have cited a commentary which disagrees with you. Should I cite it again?
Reformation Study Bible – “31:13–18 Moses’ command that all the women who were not virgins must be killed was due to the immorality at Peor. All males were killed, including children, probably to prevent any resurgence of the Midianite clans (cf. v. 7).”

not a good argument to defend children being killed  because children can not  do that
But, what if they grew up and look at their tribe's past? They would most likely bring an uprising. So, your argument is stupid.

yes numbers 31 is talking about sex with little children 
No, Numbers 31 isn't talking about sex with little children. And, discover the truth? Again, I have cited two videos which explain Numbers 31. In fact, read Numbers 25 for the backstory of Numbers 31.


Ibn_HAM's avatar
Ibn_HAM
Pro
#6
Refutation:

No, Numbers 31 doesn't talk about sex with little girls, since I have provided evidence for why isn't doesn't talk about that. And, isn't the Tulmad written way after Numbers was written? Also, don't rabbis (Like they did with Rebecca's age) add stuff into the text? Just thought of pointing that out to you. , But, what if they grew up and look at their tribe's past? They would most likely bring an uprising. So, your argument is stupid.
stop denying it I had bright multiple evidence from Jewish scholars because they know there text better than the christens and also that's  how they dealt  with the female slaves in Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 TAKE HER to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since YOU FORCED HER TO HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH YOU, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

and stop saying "kill it before it growes " to the male child because they are children they can't attack you or hurt you   also why can't Jesus take them in and make them good as he did with Paul,  your argument in defending child-killing doesn't make easier 

Conclusion:
yes numbers 31 is talking about sex with little children stop putting your christen mindset on the Jewish book 


Sources: