Instigator / Pro
16
1485
rating
91
debates
46.15%
won
Topic
#242

Does God Exist?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
9
Better sources
6
6
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
0
4

After 4 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...

MagicAintReal
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
4
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
23
1576
rating
12
debates
75.0%
won
Description

Thank you for agreeing to debate this topic with me.

TERMS

Resolved: It is probable that God exists.

Rounds:

1. Opening Arguments
2. Rebuttals
3. Rebuttals
4. Closing arguments/Rebuttals

For the purposes of this debate, the term "God" will be defined broadly as to include the general attributes (ie: omnipotence, omniscience) commonly associated with Judeo-Christian monotheism. That is to say, I am not referring to any specific deity. Hence religious-specific doctrines such as the incarnation, Sinaic revelation, and the trinity are irrelvant to this debate. "Probable" will be defined as being more likely than not.

The time limit between replies is 72 hours. If special circumstances arise, one side may ask the other to wait out his or her remaining time. If one side explicitly concedes or violates any of these terms, then all seven points will be awarded to the other. By accepting this challenge, you agree to these terms.

The burden of proof is shared. It is incumbent on me to show that God's existence is probable, and it is incumbent on my opponent to show that God's existence is not probable. It is thus not enough to simply refute my arguments. My opponent must also erect his own case against the probability of God's existence.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Pro wins the moral arguments and proves that something transcends the world to have created it. I disagree I think things are cyclical in nature so the universe can kinda keep creating itself, but that is irrelevant. I see some arguments about the judeo christian God which is off topic. Really Con won because it is not enough for him to prove some transcendent creator existed, which I think he did prove, but failed to assign this creative force any intelligence, he has to prove this creative force was omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. The task is too big for a single debate. Perhaps prove existence in one, benevolence in another omnipotence in another etc. I read the debate and analyzed it, Pro proved god but did not prove the tri-omni definition of God, and therefore loses arguments. I don't have time for an analysis that does this debate justice though, so I'll just vote on conduct. Pro's forfeits cause me to award con conduct.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

1.) KCA

Pro established his Initial BOP with this, but con blew the KCA out of the water; expertly justifying is the logical flaw - both that it is textbook special pleading, and circular based on definitions. Pro never gets close to addressing this, and mostly chooses to simply reiterate the form of the proposition. Con hammers this home in the final round.

This argument devastates pros first position. The quantum fluctuations argument simply knocks it out of the park by providing a factual refutation of the premise pro states is self evidently true.

1:0 Con

2.) Morality: I didn’t feel pro really hammered this home, his justification of this point felt a bit laboured and unconvincing as I felt he didn’t justify the objective part of the morality well enough by showing it is indeed objective (transcendental), he made an argument though - which needs to be rebutted (but doesn’t require a strong one).

Con does this pretty well by providing an alternative explanation of morality, the homeostasis argument is actually - pretty good way of describing right and wrong without God, and I felt con did pretty well here. Primarily though, con pointed out something that I didn’t notice (i write my critique as I read the debate), namely that pro did not establish that such laws necessarily come from God. Pros follow this up in a way that largely misses that point and attempts to reassert this initial contention, mostly re-enforcing by asking who created it - an implicit follow on from the successfully rebutted KCA

I felt con won this part too by really showing the fundamental premise is faulty, or unproven - and following it up with a naturalistic argument.

2-0 to Con.

3.) thomastic argument.

I read this a couple of times, and this seems mostly an argument based on an asserted premise. Reading it twice, pro didn’t fully justify the premise and simply relies on asserting it. I noticed that pro appeared to drop it. Con touched about the rebuttal but I won’t score this one.

So at half time, pros position has effectively been destroyed. But con has to support his position to the same degree. So on to cons point.

4.) Omnipotence problem 1+2

So, con was rather verbose here - essentially pointing out that there a number of contradictions with a typical definition of Gods omnipotence. He did a good job of this - and pro largely objected to this by arguing that such contradictions are not limitations as they are impossible. Pro seems to fundamentally undermine his own definition - by arguing that limitlessness has limits - as Con pointed out. For me, pro implicitly destroyed the definition of omnipotence as defined and as I understand it - effectively arguing omnipotence as defined can’t exist, and therefore God as defined in the details can’t either.

Con 3:0.

Note: con wins arguments at this point. All pros points are destroyed, and con offers one unrefuted argument.

5.) temporalness/spaxefjme. Con offers my favourite argument against a creator - how can a God create something if there may not be a before in which something did not exist. He does his via cause and effect, time in general, and it being impossible to “create” without space time (a flavour of the first).

He offers sources to provide evidence that this is the case. Which for me is a massive slap sunk for con.

Pro offers no rebuttal 4:0

Conduct to con due to pro forfeit.

Sources to con: i almost awarded this as a tie. But as con had the only real example of evidence that flat out cut down his opponents key premise (quantum fluctuations), and supported his own premise with evidence to support it - the inflation science link. I felt that Pro didn’t cite any compelling evidence for the contested premises in even close to the same way. Those two sets of sources were knockouts in my view. The reason I considered a draw was that con didn’t present too many other sources, whereas pro tended to offer a lot of sources, but mostly to reiterate portions of the rationalist argument - rather than backing up the premises.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

"Without time existing first, how do you know that the universe didn't create your god?"

This is an important point pro did not answer. From a previous round to the last round. Con asks how can you have creation without time. I don't think Pro answered this. The answer is easy... who says there wasn't time before the BB or that time and space were different... but, i didn't see an answer to this question. Probably bc Pro dropped two rounds due to being inattentive to this debate. If you can't keep track of debates do one at a time Pro. It was very frustrating as a reader. Besides the above, con did a good job disproving the definition and their paradoxes which pro concedes at points by putting limitations. I'm going to give Con conduct and arguments. Conduct bc he was attentive and didn't ff. Arguments bc he really didn't get rebuked and the above mentioned.

Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

Virt ff one round and misposted an argument. Though those were not malicious, it showed poorer conduct.

But Con killed himself by contradicting his entire argument when he insisted that God must be able to do illogical things. If he affirms illogic, not only do all his premises fail, but all his rebuttals fail too.

For example, con says God cannot fly unless God is subject to natural law, thus nullifying His omnipotence. But that is logic, and he has just affirmed that God should not be limited to the logical. So if he is right, his argument is wrong!

Disallowing logic simply dealt a fatal blow to his argument for almost all of his rebuts depended on logic. I say almost all because, some of his rebuts were just semantics, not logical. When he spoke about immovable objects and irresistible forces, universal qualities cannot exist in a universe with the opposite quality, that is the definition of "universal", so all he is doing is playing with words. There is no logic there at all.

Virts arguments (when he did post them) were neat and concise. His conclusions followed from his premises and his argument was consistent in its use of logic and the expectations thereof.

He also had better citations.