The point of being a Christian is not to be a good person.
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This is not a debate about the existence of the Christian God. It's about what the teachings of Jesus inform us regarding The Gospel.
Pro argues that the “relationship” outweighs the good ideas that Jesus tried to teach. But believing in his teachings is also a crucial part of Christianity.
Since Christians believe they will go to hell if they sin, it’s clear that they would like to avoid this and be as good person as possible.
Even if perfection is impossible one may still strive to be as good as possible as a Christian.
I think pro needs to brush up on the bible. Nowhere does it explicitly say that the good person is sinless.
There are countless traits that are supported by the Bible that all add up to what can be considered as forgiven by God and passing the standards of heaven.Take a look carefully at the following passages.ROMANS 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”
LUKE 18:19“‘Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.’”
COLOSSIANS 3:23“Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.”
HEBREWS 12:14“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
Through countless famous phrases, the Bible preaches forgiveness, "love thy neighbor", and the golden rule of treating others how you want to be treated.
There is a constant stress that even though no one is "good enough", not even the actually sinless Jesus Christ,
people should strive to be good as the effort and belief in God itself suffices to join him in heaven. Because of God's telling of people what he expects, Christians who follow the bible want to be a good person, regardless of its impossibility.
There is always someone better, and even Jesus follows the "almighty God" as described in the story. That does not negate the idea of Christianity is being a good person.
I still don’t quite understand pros point. All the verses he has shown deliver the idea of being a good person.
Jesus himself admitted he was not good enough
and only God was truly good,
Jesus was said to be righteous (having true authority to spread God’s word) due to being son of God and sinless.
But countless followers have decided to repent and be accepted by god by being a good person in our standards alone,
There are many theological errors cited about which are not consistent with the core and clear message of the Bible. The same core truths shared in detail across books (letters) like Romans. As well as found in every Christian churches statement of belief. Or put simply, the point of being a Christian can't be to be a good person because the Biblical view is none are good.
This is a nice summary of the Gospel (https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/a-six-point-summary-of-the-gospel)
1) God created us for his glory.
“Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory” (Isaiah 43:6–7). God made all of us in his own image so that we would image forth, or reflect, his character and moral beauty.
2) Therefore every human should live for God’s glory.
“Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31). The way to live for the glory of God is to love him (Matthew 22:37), trust him (Romans 4:20), be thankful to him (Psalm 50:23), obey him (Matthew 5:16), and treasure him above all things (Philippians 3:8; Matthew 10:37). When we do these things we image forth God’s glory.
3) Nevertheless, we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). “Although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him . . . and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images” (Romans 1:21–23). None of us has loved or trusted or thanked or obeyed or treasured God as we ought.
4) Therefore we all deserve eternal punishment.
“The wages of sin is (eternal) death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Those who did not obey the Lord Jesus “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:46).
5) Yet, in his great mercy, God sent his only Son Jesus Christ into the world to provide for sinners the way of eternal life.
“God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13). “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18).
6) Therefore eternal life is a free gift to all who will trust in Christ as Lord and Savior and supreme Treasure of their lives.
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20). “I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ” (Philippians 3:8).
I still don't see pro's argument. He says we live to become God's glory but never achieve it. Regardless of our results, the bible directly says we WANT to be like the perfect Jesus/God like figure.
Unless Pro defeats this idea, he cannot win this debate.
Just because perfection cannot be achieved does not mean our efforts are meaningless.
The point of Christianity is to walk with Christ so we may one day get back to that design
You're welcome. I don't often have the time to read debates, but I enjoyed reading this one. Your conduct is always excellent, and you bring out the best in others.
That is awesome feedback thank you! I totally agree too. Thanks for taking the time! You didn't have to.
I think you've improved some. You were making some decent arguments. As I said in my vote, brevity and clarity would help. You need to think about what you need to prove and how your points relate to that. While you wrote a lot of words, many of them didn't have much to do with the resolution.
This verse is in the same context as Galatians 5, which goes much more in depth. An increase in good fruits of the spirits lead to good works because it's now what you want to do, where before you didn't. If you don't have good fruit, you're not a follower of Christ (faith) and therefore faith without works can be thought of as dead. James goes on after that first verse to elaborate on his meaning. For a much more logically based argument, and longer, Romans goes VERY into this idea. Especially around chapters 5, 6, 7.
When the people around you understand the context and you have limited space with which to write, you don't always add the level of context next to every single similar claim as we would today. You have to look at the larger narrative of that section as well as the New Testament story to see if the conclusions follow.
perhaps this debate was what you were looking for? https://www.debateart.com/debates/1244-is-christianity-a-good-moral-system-to-follow
An interesting read. Thank you to the participants for this debate.
The resolution is "The point of being a Christian is not to be a good person." Con, then, would have the burden of proof to show that that is the point of being a Christian. It's hard to tell whether Pro merely needs to show that that isn't the point or whether he needs to support an alternative, since the debate does not make that clear.
The debate doesn't really start until Round 2. Pro begins with an argument that Christians are saved in spite of their sin, so being a good person isn't necessary. Good works, or being a good person, are the result of a change of heart and not the point of Christianity. He also argues that it is impossible for humans to be good by God's standards. Con answers this by saying that, even though it is impossible for humans to be perfect, that doesn't mean that perfection isn't the goal. Furthermore, he points to commands such as "love one another" as evidence that Christians should strive to be perfect.
In Round 3, Pro answers Con's objections by distinguishing between salvation and sanctification. Being a good person is an example of sanctification, but that is different from salvation. He also states what he says is the point of being a Christian: "God is going to restore things to the way they were in the Garden of Eden. One in which we are in relationship with God and ruling over the Earth with Him. The point is to go back to that relationship." Con almost totally wastes his third round. He argues that many of the verses Pro has cited support the idea of being a good person and also argues that many Christians have been accepted by God by repenting and being a good person.
Pro argues in Round 4 that people are saved solely through repentance and forgiveness. To quote him, "Being a good person in our standards is worthless when the true standard to judge good implies we're all wretches." Con argues that the Bible says that we should become like God, who is perfect. Even though that is an unattainable goal, it is still the goal of becoming good.
Pro argues in Round 5 that being a good person isn't the point. They don't save, although they are a part of the process of sanctification. He again asserts that the point of Christianity is to restore the original relationship between God and man. Con argues that there is no difference between that and being a good person.
Con didn't put a lot of effort into the debate, but his arguments outmaneuver Pro's wordiness. Con's argument that the purpose Pro propose is indistinguishable from being a good person is enough to win, since Pro never really explains how they are different. Arguments to Con.
Conduct was excellent. There were no issues with S&G. Pro did cite a few sources but failed to provide links to them (the summary of Romans and the gospel). However, neither of those really impacted his arguments, so I won't dock him for that.
It would have been nice to see Con put more effort into this. He did the bare minimum required to win, which is technically enough, though not very satisfying. Pro needs to work on relating his arguments back to the point he's trying to prove or disprove. Brevity and additional clarity would have really helped his case.
That being said, this debate was good to read. Thanks to both participants.