I think pro needs to brush up on the bible. Nowhere does it explicitly say that the good person is sinless.
The Bible defines good by God's character. God is good. Jesus is God. Jesus was sinless and is a person. Therefore a good person is a sinless person by Biblical definition.
Actually your citation of Luke below shows this in part. Ill answer more thoroughly there.
There are countless traits that are supported by the Bible that all add up to what can be considered as forgiven by God and passing the standards of heaven.
Take a look carefully at the following passages.
ROMANS 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.”
This is referring to the "heart change". One where you went from desiring things against God's definition to desiring things of the Spirit. That's why it starts with, "those in Christ Jesus". Those who have been saved. Who are living with total dependence on Christ. Lord is appropriate. One with total power and authority over your life. Paul presents logical arguments.
A pretty decent summary of Romans ()
"The letter to the Romans stands as the clearest and most systematic presentation of Christian doctrine in all the Scriptures. Paul began by discussing that which is most easily observable in the world—the sinfulness of all humanity. All people have been condemned due to our rebellion against God. However, God in His grace offers us justification by faith in His Son, Jesus. When we are justified by God, we receive redemption, or salvation, because Christ’s blood covers our sin. But Paul made it clear that the believer’s pursuit of God doesn’t stop with salvation; it continues as each of us is sanctified—made holy—as we persist in following Him."
The riches of Heaven the Bible speaks of are not like presents. God grows us as people. Via discipline, like a father does a son (one of the reasons that anology model is so helpful). Life becomes more fufilling, you become more at peace as you're sanctified. More in-line with the original design.
We need to look at more to see what Paul means. This is after conversion, after salvation has been achieved.
It starts as a continuation from a prior point (the chapters were added later and were not part of the original letter to the Roman church):
(Trimmed for character count)
Romans 7:7-25 ESV
Paul wrestles with sinning after being saved. He continues where you started:
(Trimmed for character count)
Romans 8:1-6 ESV
Again talking about the heart change that takes place.
LUKE 18:19
“‘Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.’”
John starts his Gospel, with a call back to Genesis, claiming the diety of Christ.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3 ESV
One of many verses citing Jesus as sinless.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 ESV
And finally the standard of good from the excerpt from Luke above.
This shows us that God is good and good is sinless so a good person is a sinless person.
COLOSSIANS 3:23
“Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.”
The same idea here that Paul was talking about. The sanctification process we work and fail at. We make progress, but thats to our own personal benefit. A further gift to us and the relationships we form. It deepens our relationship with God as well. Which was the point since the beginning. I think this 6min video sums it up very well (and much better than me):
https://youtu.be/Zy2AQlK6C5k
If we add a few more verses to this excerpt, I think it further supports this point.
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.
Colossians 3:23-25 ESV
This more so is urging on behalf of the judgement we all face. Christians are forgiven so are granted eternity in God's presence on earth after judgement.
Once Christ returns, before things get kicking on earth as they were meant to be, all are held accountable for their actions. The above verses are basically saying, don't make that part any worse than it has to be. And why not?
So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10 ESV
HEBREWS 12:14
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”
Same thing. Sanctification not salvation. If we look at the context of the section, it's about not growing weary during sanctification. To hold steady because it's hard and we all will fail a lot. This is post conversion. Post achieving the title of Christian.
(Trimmed for character count)
Hebrews 12:3-15 ESV
"For the holiness without which no one will see the Lord " refers to the righteousness of Christ which covers us" refers to Christ being the bridge to Heaven. Essentially to be covered by Christ's righteousness is to have Him cover your "list of sins" with his blank one. It goes to on say, essentially, The Great Commission:
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Matthew 28:18-20 ESV
Through countless famous phrases, the Bible preaches forgiveness, "love thy neighbor", and the golden rule of treating others how you want to be treated.
This has to be looked at deeper. The Greek word for love chosen for this was agape. The full verse and some context of what the Greeks meant by agape type love adds a lot of context here. This was a response when asking to name the most important of all the commandments in the Law, starting with the Shema.
Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:29-31 ESV
There is a constant stress that even though no one is "good enough", not even the actually sinless Jesus Christ,
Jesus was good enough. That's the whole point. The way with which the bridge was created. The standard is good. Jesus is good. This standard is cited here in Jesus words:
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:48 ESV
Not to be saved, to enter Heaven. Since we're not, it's only through Jesus.
people should strive to be good as the effort and belief in God itself suffices to join him in heaven. Because of God's telling of people what he expects, Christians who follow the bible want to be a good person, regardless of its impossibility.
Demons "believe" in God. They know He exists in a way we don't. Simple belief isn't the point. It's putting Jesus as Lord over your whole life and repenting as a sinner before God.
Effort is explicitly called out as not the point all over the place. Good works im our lives at one point are equated to that of, in modern times, a used tampon compared to Jesus's life.
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isaiah 64:6 ESV
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Romans 11:6 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
There is always someone better, and even Jesus follows the "almighty God" as described in the story. That does not negate the idea of Christianity is being a good person.
Christian means Christ-follower. A title obtained upon a choice. You naturally desire to be good but it's only through God we are as Paul went into above. God is going to restore things to the way they were in the Garden of Eden. One in which we are in relationship with God and ruling over the Earth with Him. The point is to go back to that relationship.
Sorry I had to cut those verses out. I was out of characters.
You're welcome. I don't often have the time to read debates, but I enjoyed reading this one. Your conduct is always excellent, and you bring out the best in others.
That is awesome feedback thank you! I totally agree too. Thanks for taking the time! You didn't have to.
I think you've improved some. You were making some decent arguments. As I said in my vote, brevity and clarity would help. You need to think about what you need to prove and how your points relate to that. While you wrote a lot of words, many of them didn't have much to do with the resolution.
This verse is in the same context as Galatians 5, which goes much more in depth. An increase in good fruits of the spirits lead to good works because it's now what you want to do, where before you didn't. If you don't have good fruit, you're not a follower of Christ (faith) and therefore faith without works can be thought of as dead. James goes on after that first verse to elaborate on his meaning. For a much more logically based argument, and longer, Romans goes VERY into this idea. Especially around chapters 5, 6, 7.
When the people around you understand the context and you have limited space with which to write, you don't always add the level of context next to every single similar claim as we would today. You have to look at the larger narrative of that section as well as the New Testament story to see if the conclusions follow.
Faith without works is dead right?
perhaps this debate was what you were looking for? https://www.debateart.com/debates/1244-is-christianity-a-good-moral-system-to-follow
vote?
Agreed. Christianity sure doesn't.
If your religion advicates you to be evil, then you have no religion, you have a cult.