Morality Can Only Be Objective If God Exists
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I want to begin by thanking MagicAintReal for agreeing to debate this topic with me. In this debate I will be defending the following proposition:
1. If objective moral facts exist, then God exists
2. Objective moral facts exist [not in dispute]
3. Therefore God exists
Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
Objective: moral facts are true independent of human opinion, evolution, religious tradition, or culture.
God: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
For the purposes of this debate, the term "God" will be defined broadly as to include the general attributes (ie: omnipotence, omniscience) commonly associated with Judeo-Christian monotheism. That is to say, this debate is not about a specific religious tradition. I am not defending the Bible or the Qur'an.
1 - Opening arguments
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As per my opponent's request Ethang5, Raltar, and Death23 cannot vote on the debate
"A duty is something that is owed... But something can be owed only to some person or persons. There can be no such thing as a duty in isolation.... the concept of moral obligation [is] unintelligible apart from the idea of God. The words remain but their meaning is gone."
The experience of intentionally willing an action, they suggested, is often nothing more than a post hoc causal inference that our thoughts caused some behavior. The feeling itself, however, plays no causal role in producing that behavior. This could sometimes lead us to think we made a choice when we actually didn’t or think we made a different choice than we actually did.
If your brain is hardwired and constrained by the physical laws, then it cannot act outside of those laws or outside the limits of the hardwiring. It is, in essence, caged in by the limits of physical properties and cannot break free of them.
We would not know goodness without God's endowing us with a moral constitution. We have rights, dignity, freedom, and responsibility because God has designed us this way. In this, we reflect God's moral goodness as His image-bearers.
- Objective facts are infinite in nature;
- They are commands which can only be made by a law-giver;
- They necessitate free will
Understanding the NAP
The Mises Institute defines the NAP as "an ethical stance which asserts that "aggression" is inherently illegitimate. "Aggression" is defined as the "initiation" of physical force against persons or property, the threat of such, or fraud upon persons or their property. In contrast to pacifism, the non-aggression principle does not preclude violent self-defense. The principle is a deontological (or rule-based) ethical stance." (1)
This is basically what con is talking about in his theory of homeostasis. Con's principle of framework contains moral paradoxes, many of which are undesirable.
1. Raping a comatose person
Is it morally wrong to rape a comatose person if no physical or emotional harm is suffered and the person is unaware of what occurred? Under your framework, the answer will be no. It does not harm the person nor does it harm the homeostasis between the two people.
2. Is driving immoral?
Driving is a huge source of air pollutions worldwide and this pollution and ultimately is leading to catastrophic global warming (2). Under the homeostasis theory, driving (and other activities like smoking) are a major source of harm and a major source of decreased homeostasis between humans and non-human beings. FURTHERMORE all forms of pollution from industrialization and farming become immoral. Thus we are committing hundreds of immoral acts each day when we drive to work, use public transportation, purchase goods made from industrialization, and
3. Who's harm is it anyway?
Imagine Jack wants to rape Jill. Jill would be harmed by being raped and Jack is being harmed (in some way or in his own mind) by not raping Jill. Who's homeostasis is more important?
Con's Framework Applies to All Life
The principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong ways in which one acts or conducts oneself towards others can be reduced to principles concerning the distinction between beneficial and detrimental actions with respects to humans' and to some extent other animals' homeostasis.Any action that one could consider to be moral can be weighed by whether or not that action leads to the homeostasis of those towards whom we are acting.
Con's framework inherently leads to moral paradoxes which are undesirable. His framework also necessarily applies to all forms of life from the simple celled organism to the most complex organisms. His framework to judge objective moral facts is absurd and should be rejected.
"P1: If objective moral facts exist, then God exists."
"Objective moral facts are infinite, I mean that they transcend time, culture, place, religious traditions"
"Who or what commanded us to not kill?"
"Con's moral framework seems to be a mixture of the libertarian Non Aggression Principle (NAP hereafter) with his own stuff. His framework has quite a few holes in it."
"Con's principle of framework contains moral paradoxes, many of which are undesirable."
"Is it morally wrong to rape a comatose person if no physical or emotional harm is suffered and the person is unaware of what occurred? Under your framework, the answer will be no. It does not harm the person nor does it harm the homeostasis between the two people."
"Is driving immoral?"
"FURTHERMORE all forms of pollution from industrialization and farming become immoral."
"Who's harm is it anyway?...Imagine Jack wants to rape Jill. Jill would be harmed by being raped and Jack is being harmed (in some way or in his own mind) by not raping Jill. Who's homeostasis is more important?"
"Con's framework applies to all life because all forms of life experience homeostasis from the single-celled organisms to humans...indeed con concedes, at least in part, to this point:...but why should it stop with humans and other animals?"
Northeast. Heat waves, heavy downpours and sea level rise pose growing challenges to many aspects of life in the Northeast. Infrastructure, agriculture, fisheries and ecosystems will be increasingly compromised. Many states and cities are beginning to incorporate climate change into their planning.
Northwest. Changes in the timing of streamflow reduce water supplies for competing demands. Sea level rise, erosion, inundation, risks to infrastructure and increasing ocean acidity pose major threats. Increasing wildfire, insect outbreaks and tree diseases are causing widespread tree die-off.
Southeast. Sea level rise poses widespread and continuing threats to the region’s economy and environment. Extreme heat will affect health, energy, agriculture and more. Decreased water availability will have economic and environmental impacts.
Midwest. Extreme heat, heavy downpours and flooding will affect infrastructure, health, agriculture, forestry, transportation, air and water quality, and more. Climate change will also exacerbate a range of risks to the Great Lakes.
Southwest. Increased heat, drought and insect outbreaks, all linked to climate change, have increased wildfires. Declining water supplies, reduced agricultural yields, health impacts in cities due to heat, and flooding and erosion in coastal areas are additional concerns.
Climate change leads to an increased frequency of violent phenomena and natural disasters. This will result in the repeated management of crises with serious deaths and injuries. This will also lead to the emergence of epidemics and an increase in the flow of patients requiring emergency services. Moreover, climate change will be responsible for a change in the epidemiology of pathologies usually encountered in emergency health settings. It will also be responsible for the emergence of new diseases and the re-emergence of extinct diseases. Emergency departments should anticipate the increase in consultations because of climate changes and acute variations in temperature. Educational institutions and health and human service organizations must commit to increasing access to disaster simulation-based education and exercises, in an effort to enhance disaster preparedness of emergency caregivers.
How does atheism account for free will? If there is no free will, then you must claim that there are no objective moral facts, correct?
"Here we use an ultrasensitive optical microscopy technique to directly monitor the formation and dynamics of self-replicating supramolecular structures at the single-particle level."
"He necessarily concedes that free will exists. I gave several arguments why an atheistic world view cannot account for free will."
Whether or not I buy the god claim doesn't indicate whether or not I can account for free will.
"Con begins by attacking P1 by arguing against God's existence."
"As this is really not a debate for that, I'm going to ignore the K."
"If the universe did not exist, torturing babies for fun will still be an immoral act."
"Homeostasis cannot command us to not kill and to not torture babies for fun. From an evolutionary point of view, the only thing that matters is me, myself, and I."
"By [Con's] own reasoning, any form of sexual intercourse harms homeostasis and is thus immoral because it necessarily means that some physical trauma is given. But con ignores the hypothetical framework. In a hypothetical framework that I showed, there is no physical harm and thus no physical trauma."
Even if there's not physical trauma, which anatomically seems impossible, there is still the bypassing of one's ability to maintain homeostasis during sexual acts.
Our human bodies regulate during sex, and someone deliberately bypassing that attempt to maintain homeostasis is immoral.
"Furthermore, if someone were to rape a comatose person by oral sex or molestation, there definitely is no physical trauma."
"Certainly the long term harms are outweighed by the short term benefits."
"Any action that harms homeostasis is immoral."
I never said ANY actions.
2. Why would we need god to determine someone's homeostasis?
I. On the Debate
I was trying to make a self-affirming point, in that, if I were to freely choose to believe in free will, that would alone prove that free will exists...