Instigator / Pro
0
1487
rating
31
debates
35.48%
won
Topic
#3820

THBT: Theism is more likely than atheism.

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
6
Better sources
0
4
Better legibility
0
2
Better conduct
0
2

After 2 votes and with 14 points ahead, the winner is...

That2User
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two weeks
Max argument characters
15,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
14
1511
rating
5
debates
30.0%
won
Description

Wikipedia advises: Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, or Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami), also known as the principle of parsimony or the law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae), is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".[1][2] It is generally understood in the sense that with competing theories or explanations, the simpler one, for example a model with fewer parameters, is to be preferred.

Wikipedia advises:
"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo. This is also stated in Hitchens's razor, which declares that "what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence." Carl Sagan proposed a related criterion – "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" – which is known as the Sagan standard."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)

Following the aforementioned burdens and framework for the debate, The burden of proof will largely be on me to prove that theism is a more likely metaphysical reality than atheist conceptions. Within this debate, God will be described as the intelligent creator of all of existence. If I am capable of proving just one theist conception of God as more likely than atheism, I ought to have won the debate. Con agrees to these conditions before accepting the debate.

Rules:
1. No unnecessary/intentional forfeits
2. Be decent

Round 1
Pro
#1
Resolution: THBT: Theism is more likely than atheism.
Position: Pro
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Roadmap: 

  • Preface
  • A1.  multiplication of thing and properties of things
  • A1.2 Distinction between things and properties of things
  • A2. Argument through solipsistic duality
  • Crystallization


Preface
One of the strongest arguments against God's existence is the idea that the idea of God possesses more qualities, assumptions, and/or multiplications beyond necessity than atheism. What better than using the atheists' own epistemology against them? My arguments will utilise basic maths. As such, my arguments should not be hard to follow. During this debate, I will be arguing for a pantheist/panpsychist conception of God being more likely than atheism.
 

A1.  multiplication of thing and properties of things

Following Occam's razor, it's easier to imagine one of something as opposed to two of something. Assuming I have two apples, If I asked an atheist how many apples I have in my hands, he would tell me I have two distinct entities. Atheism is predicated on this separation of things. A pantheist would tell me that there are two apples, but the separation between these two entities is an illusion; the apples are in reality properties of one thing (god) and not things (entities) of themselves.


A1.2 Distinction between things and properties of things
 
A pantheist doesn't deny that there are two separate apples. The pantheist, on the other hand, denies that the apples are things in their own right (their own entity), as opposed to properties within another entity. The atheist has entities, i.e., the apples themselves are entities and not properties, and then the apple has the properties of being an apple. The pantheist only has one thing, which is God, while the apples are properties or parts of God.
 
As a result, the atheist possesses infinite things with infinite properties (if all atoms, etc. in the universe are counted). The pantheist possesses one thing (God) and then all the things that are part of the universe are properties of God, but not things apart from God. As such, pantheism possesses only one thing with infinite properties within that one thing.


1. Atheism possesses infinite things with infinite properties
2. Pantheism possesses one thing with infinite properties. 

Following this logic, atheism has not been proven just less likely than pantheism, but has been proven to be logically absurd and infinitely unrealistic, as proven through basic maths.
 
The atheist cannot also agree with me and say that all is one, because saying all is one implies that they are omnipresent, presiding over all parts of the universe at once, and are thus God the creator. It can't be any other way, because being the universe implies that you created yourself during the big bang (as you are it). 

A2. Argument through solipsistic duality

1. The mind and body are two separate substances, and have no shared properties

2. two substances need one shared property to interact

3. the mind and body cannot interact


If we assume nothing exists, all we can be assured of is our own minds' existence. If it is true that other minds do not exist, then we're in reality experiencing our own minds through "other beings". Within a solipsistic framework, everything is one's own consciousness. As such, you are God the creator within a solipsistic worldview. You create the universe through your own consciousness. If it is true, other minds do exist. Following the mind-body problem, how do we possibly interact with them?
-
Assuming nothing, Following premise two, that two separate substances cannot interact unless through a shared property, for two separate consciousnesses to interact, they must in reality be the same consciousness, otherwise they could not interact. Consciousness is simply empty awareness and possesses no properties of its own, except through a medium. As such, consciousness itself must be the fundamental shared substance among all entities.

-
Therefore, even brought down to the fundamental axioms, pantheism defeats atheism on both sides. Even if other minds exist, and even if they do not. If physicalism is true, then we simply regress back to argument one. Pantheism still possesses less unnecessary multiplication of things. As such, both in an idealist, physicalist, and solipsist worldview, pantheism remains more likely in every single one.
 


Crystallization

  • Atheism appears not to be just less likely than pantheism, but it appears to be infinitely less likely, and as such, reduced to absurdity due to its infinite entities.
    • Pantheism is more likely in a solipsist worldview, a physicalist worldview, and an idealist worldview than atheism.

Con
#2
 Atheism is predicated on this separation of things
Atheism is the lack of belief in God/gods, materialism is predicated on the physical separation of physical things, not atheism. Materialism is what states that "nothing exists outside of physical matter," not atheism

using the atheists' own epistemology against them?
Atheism has no epistemology, only a lack of belief, not all atheists believe in naturalism, naturalism is the belief all beings and events in the universe (whatever their inherit character may be) are natural, atheism only has no belief in God/gods

The atheist possesses infinite things with infinite properties (if all atoms, etc. in the universe are counted)
No, this is the materialist perspective, not the atheist perspective, atheism makes no claim of the nature of physical reality, only a lack of belief in a deity/deities

1. Atheism possesses infinite things with infinite properties
2. Pantheism possesses one thing with infinite properties. 
An atheist can believe everything is one single entity like a pantheist does, only the atheist would not believe everything to be God,
If the Universe is believed to be all of one thing, but doesn't fit the definition of God (the intelligent creator of all of existence), then the Universe being all one thing would be atheistic 

 atheism has not been proven just less likely than pantheism, but has been proven to be logically absurd
Nothing on the likelihood/logical absurdity of atheism was proven

The atheist cannot also agree with me and say that all is one
The atheist can say all is one, since everything is one with (within) the Universe 
If we assume nothing exists, all we can be assured of is our own minds' existence
If nothing exists, not even our own minds would exist, since the mind is a thing-nothing is assured to exist, not even one's own mind,   

1. The mind and body are two separate substances, and have no shared properties

2. two substances need one shared property to interact

3. the mind and body cannot interact
The mind and body are shared, connected by the brain, the brain controls the body and has the mind within it, the mind and body interact constantly via the brain

Solipsism

Solipsism believes only in the mind's own existence 

everything is one's own consciousness. As such, you are God the creator within a solipsistic worldview. You create the universe through your own consciousnes
When I was conceived in the womb I had no consciousness, no conscious thought, my mind/brain wasn't developed enough. If I created the universe through my own consciousness, how did I become alive with no consciousness?  In this definition I wouldn't even create myself because I had no consciousness  when I was created, how can I be God the creator if I didn't create myself? My existence is because of forces outside/beyond my control/consciousness,

The Universe includes everything in existence 
I did not create myself through my own consciousness
I am included in the Universe as something in existence
I did not create the Universe through my own consciousness

End
Atheism is a disbelief, the disbelief in a deity/deities, it is not a belief, it does not make any claim to the nature of physical reality
The Instigator conflates atheism with materialism/physicalism, the belief that physical matter is all that exists as separate entities within the Universe
All the Instigator does in the opening is decrease the probability of materialism in infinite sets as infinite things exist within the Universe in a materialist physical framework, not an atheist one, at 0 point do they make any move to disprove atheism itself
A pantheist may believe everything is one entity as God, an atheist may believe everything is one entity but not as God,  infinite things with infinite properties is gone, only the belief/existence in God is left  
Existence is independent to my own consciousness, I've existed via conception when I wasn't conscious of my own existence, I did not create my own existence, I am not God the creator

Sources:
Types of Atheists | Psychology of Atheism Part 1:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWhz3SXPWkg&ab_channel=UsefulCharts
The brain produces mind by modeling: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1912340117

Round 2
Pro
#3
I forfeit, please vote con. 
Con
#4
Vote me, FF
Round 3
Pro
#5
Forfeited
Con
#6
FF, vote me