Instigator / Pro

Statichead

1509

rating

debates

37.5%

won

Topic

#3842

Khajiit are better than Argonians 2.0

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 1 vote and with the same amount of points on both sides...

It's a tie!

Tags

Games

Parameters

Publication date: 10.21.2022 01:00PM
Last updated date: 11.17.2022 12:17AM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 2
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: Two weeks
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Sum1hugme

1627

rating

debates

66.22%

won

Description

there really isnt one its pretty self explanatory

Round 1

Statichead

10.23.2022 03:26PM

Pro

Kajiit are a better race than Argonians because they are smarter, have a generally higher IQ, and are highly intelligent. They have natural claws, that outshine some weapons in the start of the game. The Kajiit also possess night vision. Although the Argonians have water-breathing, the kajiit are stealthier and speedier. The stereotypes against the Kajiit are untrue. The Kajiit are not all drug dealers and thieves. Many Kajiit are only trying to get by with simple merchandising, body guarding, and white-hat thievery (stealing for the government, professional espionage, etc.).

On the other hand, Argonians are the "devil in disguise" in my opinion. Because they are allowed in cities, they can have easier access to all of Skyrim's goods. therefore, they are much more tempted (and prone) to stealing/scheming/scamming. My main concern is in Riften and especially Solitude (The Capital of Skyrim).

In other (non-opinionated) terms, The Argonians are canonically and factually an inferior. In the lore of Skyrim and the greater Elder Scrolls universe, Argonians have always been the thick-skinned (and thick-skulled) characters. Many a brute by nature, others tricksters. The only major redeeming factor for Argonians are the fact they can breathe under water.

In conclusion, Kajiit are superior in a myriad of ways, mainly via the fact that they are sneakier, smarter, and naturally more evolved creatures. Argonians are unintelligent (mostly), physically inferior compared to other species, and are only special because they are lizard people.

Also, fun fact, Kajiit's "class/build" comes from when they are born, regardless of the parents. If the stars align (literally), the Kajiit will come out that way.

In my final conclusion, The Kajiit may have some relations with the gods of the Elder Scrolls universe, therefore are celestials as well as cats. So, Kajiit are half-god half-cat beautiful creatures and Argonians are slimy lizards with a magic tree that tells the future. Kajiit are better. I rest my case.

Sources:

https://www.cbr.com/skyrim-best-beast-race-khajiits-vs-argonians/#:~:text=Another%20intense%20advantage%20Khajiit%20have,when%20they%20want%20to%20be.

https://fazerpergunta.com/biblioteca/artigo/read/177343-is-the-khajiit-good

My final source is my own game play/theorizing.

Sum1hugme

10.23.2022 09:56PM

Con

Argonians are better than khajiit.

For one, argonians successfully resisted the daedric invasion in the third era. Not only did they resist it, but they threatened to completely destroy the daedric invasion of black marsh. "The Argonian forces apparently managed to break into Oblivion itself, fighting and winning against the Daedra. The Dremora lieutenants were forced to close their own Gates to prevent being overrun, something unheard of anywhere else." (1). Of the information we have available, the argonians did better than any other race or province during the oblivion crisis.

Secondly, argonians can breathe underwater. Without potions and enchantments, this is impossible for a khajiit. The extent of this advantage is difficult to fully describe, but it is a breeze for argonians to explore shipwrecks or avoid otherwise disastrous confrontations by simply swimming away, deeper and longer than any other race naturally can.

From a gaming standpoint, the usefulness of claws vs water breathing is barely comparable, since weapons are abundant even in the introductory mission of Skyrim, such as the iron battle-axe, which has a base damage of 16 (2) vs the khajiit claws base damage of 12 (3). From the first mission in Skyrim, khajiit claws are rendered nearly obsolete. If one wants to cast a spell of water breathing, they must have an alteration level of 50 to cast it effectively, and the effect lasts only 60 seconds per cast, and cannot be casted underwater or while swimming (4). The only way to gain the enchantment is to find a random helmet with the enchantment, or late game loot such as the ebony warrior's helmet, who does not spawn until the player is level 80, which is not nearly as reliable or immediate as simply having the racial ability.

In terms of racial abilities in Skyrim, the argonians have 3 while the khajiit have only 2. The khajiit are limited to 60 seconds of night vision once per day, and the passive existence of their claws (5). The argonians however have access to rapid healing once per day, a passive 50% resistance to all diseases, and a passive ability to breathe underwater (6).

In conclusion, argonians are better warriors according to the lore, and are an innately more advantageous race to play in Skyrim.

Round 2

Statichead

10.27.2022 08:48PM

Pro

Sorry, I apparently missed the notification saying it was my turn. Lets continue.

Very interesting argument! I cannot argue the outcome of the Oblivion Crisis, however I think that the only reason the Argonians were as powerful as they were was because of The Hist, their prophecy tree. I believe that it was luck the Argonians found the Hist, because otherwise it would have been up to whoever was in control of the Hist. Say, as an example, the Redguards found the Hist. They would not have been overrun. Say, Khajiit. Same scenario.

Also funny thing I noticed while writing, every race in Skyrim is marked as "incorrect spelling," so that's funny. Anyway, I'll resume.

From a gaming standpoint, the usefulness of claws vs water breathing is barely comparable, since weapons are abundant even in the introductory mission of Skyrim, such as the iron battle-axe, which has a base damage of 16 (2) vs the khajiit claws base damage of 12 (3). From the first mission in Skyrim, khajiit claws are rendered nearly obsolete.

You said that Khajiit claws are nearly obsolete. This is untrue. Khajiit claws deal more damage when using fists, so you will most likely win any bar brawl against a non-khajiit. This attribute is most useful when weapons such as "Gloves of the Pugilist" are used. The benefits of both the gloves and the claws combine, giving you a very powerful weapon to last a while in the game. Admittedly, it wont last as long as many would like, but it does last.

A trait you failed to mention among Khajiit is stealth. Socially among Tamriel, this is used against them. However, aside from what others think Khajiit will do, Khajiit are the stealthiest among all races/classes. Khajiit make amazing Assassins, theives, spies and guards. No other race matches their stealth without enchantments and potions.

Secondly, argonians can breathe underwater.

Argonians have a water breathing ability, that's true. The way you glorify the ability makes it seem as though it is one of the most useful abilities in the game. There are so few quests that involve swimming that most players do not need water-breathing, even in potion form. Even when swimming and water breathing may be necessary, there is so little water that the ability becomes

nearly obsolete.

Anyway, Thanks for taking this argument and thanks for taking it seriously. I look forward to your response. Apologies for the late response. Thank you!

Sum1hugme

11.03.2022 12:17AM

Con

Thank you for your response.

Argonians are superior to khajiit. My opponent asserts that the only reason the argonians were the only recorded race to turn the tide against the daedric hordes was due to the Hist, and while the Hist did aid in directing the argonian counterattacks, it would not have been successful without the ability of individual argonian warriors. It was the valor and skill of the fighters that turned the tide, in conjunction with their connection to the Hist that allowed Black Marsh to overwhelm the daedra. The Hist is an ancient type of tree that grows in Black Marsh, and is venerated by the argonian's culture. The Hist is an integral part of argonian society, and the sap is used ritualistically in many parts of the argonians life, but it did not do the fighting for them (1). However, even if my opponent's argument was true, it would only strengthen the idea that a race closely tied to the Hist, like the argonians, would have the advantage over one that isn't, like the khajiit.

My argument in regards to the claws was that they are rendered nearly obsolete by weapons that can be acquired in the tutorial mission of the game, whereas the ability to acquire water breathing as a khajiit takes considerably longer than it takes to replace claws as a primary weapon. Plus, bar brawls are quite rare in the grand scheme of things, constituting only 17 (2) of the 270+ (3)quests in the game. Additionally, there are over 700 bandits in Skyrim alone (4), not to include other types of enemies, of which there are many. So claws are useful against 17 enemies in brawls, whereas weapons will be used against over 700 bandits, and every other enemy in the game, to much greater effect.

As for water breathing, there are 16 underwater chests in Skyrim, and 5 underwater location entrances (5), totalling 21 instances of water breathing being practical, and only 17 bar brawl quests, meaning that there are more opportunities for using water breathing than there are claws. Therefore, water breathing is more useful than claws.

My opponent dropped the fact that argonians also have more natural abilities than khajiit, which are individually more practically useful than the racial abilities of the khajiit.

In conclusion, argonians are better than khajiit. Argonians have more numerous, more practical racial abilities, while khajiit have fewer, more immediately obsolete racial abilities. Also, argonians are, canonically, more successful warriors.

Statichead

11.16.2022 10:07PM

#30

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@Lemming

thanks for voting!

Statichead

11.16.2022 09:57PM

#29

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@Sum1hugme

yeah I hope someone votes :/

Sum1hugme

11.16.2022 04:35PM

#28

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@Statichead

Yes, but where's the fun in that? I'm surprised this isn't going to get voted on.

Statichead

11.16.2022 03:24PM

#27

if we just leave it will it tie us?

Sum1hugme

11.16.2022 11:47AM

#26

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.16.2022 05:18AM

#25

Alright guys, let's get at least one vote

Sum1hugme

11.15.2022 03:49PM

#24

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.15.2022 01:20PM

#23

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.15.2022 04:32AM

#22

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.15.2022 01:28AM

#21

Vote bump

Statichead

11.14.2022 11:45PM

#20

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@RationalMadman

@Best.Korea

consider voting?

Sum1hugme

11.14.2022 10:30PM

#19

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.13.2022 07:46PM

#18

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.13.2022 01:40PM

#17

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.13.2022 01:14AM

#16

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.12.2022 11:52AM

#15

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.12.2022 04:17AM

#14

Vote bump

Statichead

11.10.2022 05:23PM

#13

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@Bones

consider voting?

Sum1hugme

11.09.2022 03:13PM

#12

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@Vader

@Discipulus_Didicit

@badger

Please consider voting

Sum1hugme

11.09.2022 01:44PM

#11

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.08.2022 01:36PM

#10

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.07.2022 09:47AM

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.06.2022 09:29AM

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.05.2022 11:03PM

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.05.2022 04:27PM

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.05.2022 12:19PM

Vote bump

Sum1hugme

11.05.2022 03:00AM

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@Statichead

Yeah, it's a debate I was excited to do. So thank you for the challenge

Sum1hugme

11.05.2022 02:59AM

Vote bump

Statichead

11.04.2022 05:38PM

thanks again for the argument! nice final comeback.

Sum1hugme

11.03.2022 11:44AM

Vote bump

Lemming

11.16.2022 09:59PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Better, needs an if we value X, and circumstance.
Perhaps.

Still, per the debate,
I assume One Value, is the human player being able to easier surpass obstacles in game,
Which can be obstacles such as water, combat, darkness, so on.
As Con says, water breathing is always available, but then again, water isn't.
As Pro says, claws are always available, but then again, with weapons, 'need isn't.

Mentioned in the debate, are advantages,
Con mentioning 3, compared to 2, but Pro mentions higher sneak in Khajit.
So 3 to 3, Tie, I'd see it.
Though one could argue that ability is not the same as stats, as Pro does,
But it's not clear to me why stats matter less than abilities.
I suppose Pro might have a point about frequency of available uses in Skyrim, but that would require the debate be 'restricted to Skyrim, which the lore given, was not.

2nd Value is aesthetics, which is mentioned by Pro, but not Con,
So in lack of mention, to Pro.

3rd is history and success in lore,
Which while Pro argue Khajit are not so bad as their reputation,
Con is able to give historical example of military success,
Pro argues luck of circumstance, but really genetics and culture are also luck of circumstance,
If some powerful Mane had existed, perhaps Khajit would have done better.
So I give 3rd point to Con.

Arguments Tie, as was explained above.
Sources, Tie, Both used sources.
Spelling, Grammar Tie, Both understandable.
Conduct, Tie, Both polite.