Instigator / Pro
0
1497
rating
3
debates
16.67%
won
Topic
#3855

Is the Trinity true?

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
0
0

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
0
1492
rating
332
debates
40.66%
won
Description

The pro has the burden of proof to show through a consistent means of comparison of religions and logic to provide a basis for a belief in the trinitiarian Godhead.

The con must provide evidence that God is either 1 person or any other theistic models.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Basic Definition

The trinity is a Christian doctrine that describes the essence and aseity of God. God which is one essence is shared by three separate conscious entities. Christians still affirm the doctrine of the unity of God since that does not necessitate a strict mono-personal aspect. The titles of each person is Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. 

Establishing each person:

The Person of Jesus 

Jesus the teacher and prophet of both Christianity and Islam, must be called into question to see whether he himself affirms these claims. 

"Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" 
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works."

John 14:8-10
 
From this verse we see that Jesus affirms he is the physical manifestation of the Father. But he still recognizes that is not the Father, since "I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me"

Jesus also calls himself the Son of Man as well as the Son of God. 

The Son of Man does not refer to the humanity of God as some may think. It is actually making a claim to his divinity. During Jesus' arrest and trial he is asked by the religious monotheist Jews: 

Again the high priest questioned Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:61-62

The phrase Son of Man is a claim he quotes from Daniel 7 which states 

"In my vision in the night I continued to watch,
and I saw One like the Son of Man
coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days
and was led into His presence.
And He was given dominion,
glory, and kingship,
that the people of every nation and language
should serve Him.
(Serve him.--In Biblical Chaldee this word is only used of rendering Divine service or worship. The "Son of man" is therefore here spoken of as God.)
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one
that will never be destroyed
."

Here I placed in bold the implications with the claim of being the Son of Man. He comes into the clouds of heaven as Jesus states, he is served worldwide, and he receives an eternal kingdom (no temporal man is able to assume). The Jews knew this, and in the same chapter (Mark 16:64) they react in this manner, 

"You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?
And they all condemned Him as deserving of death."

In both Christian and Jewish scriptures we see that there is a notion that there are many sons of God. Why then is Jesus anything different? Well the difference is that we are sons both by creation and adoption yet Jesus is a son by nature.  Every mention of Christ's creation by his own account is always transcendental and eternal. 

"Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”
“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 8:57-58

And again, 

"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed."

John 17:5


The person of the Spirit 

The Spirit of God is third divine person,  responsible for bringing knowledge of sin, sealing of the believer, and sanctifying him. Many think that he is simply a force similar to the courage of a man is the 'spirit'. Yet in the biblical data we see him as an entity with emotions, thoughts, and desires. The biblical evidence is this. 

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
Acts 5:3-4

The Holy Spirit must be God as well as an entity because he can be lied to and sinned against. Here are more.

 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Ephesians 4:30

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:2

And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”
Acts 8:29

Agents can only receive and provide communication and affections which is what we see here.

The person of the Father

The Father is the divine agent in which both the Spirit and the Son are both subject to. He takes the primary role in the Old Testament in the distribution of the law prophets, law, etc. In the NT he is seen as sending both the Spirit and Son to us. 










Con
#2
"The con must provide evidence that God is either 1 person or any other theistic models."

The evidence according to scripture John 4:24.

For God is a spirit.

Paraphrasing I believe. It could be exact.

I believe a person and a spirit are different. If you want proof of that according to the scripture, we can go there.


Round 2
Pro
#3
The way I have used person in this debate is not referring to human nature exactly, moreso I have used this to refer to entity or conscious agent. From Scripture I have indicated that the trinitarian model is familiar to Christianity. Still, this does not discount my model of God. God (the Father) can be spirit and yet have other members in the Godhead.
Con
#4
There is no scripture for a Trinity in the Godhead meaning 3 persons, three personalities or multiple members meaning Gods and deities .

If this is what you mean , this is scripture to conflict with it.

From the book of Isaiah chapter 45.

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

This verse is explaining who the LORD is. There's just LORD and none else. Mentions no membership, no multiple persons, people or spirits.

The classic Deuteronomy 6 and 4.

"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one"

There's really nothing in the book to describe God such as those that in the idea of Trinity with the counting and adding.

The book of Proverbs 30 points out about adding.

So with reading the scriptures as is without adding the conjured up Trinity doctrine, the scriptures themselves do not address God as a person. So leave it where it identifies God as a spirit.

The Son of God while in flesh and blood was a person as flesh and blood, physical and visible. This is different from the Spirit which is invisible. That's why the Son of course was or is the image.

If you want to use that " three bear record" jazz, I'll just ask "three what?"

So , nip that in the bud.

I don't believe you'll find anywhere in scripture as written, keyword written, that is verbatim a Trinity, triune God.
This is how we stay carefully within the confines of biblical teaching .

Now we may read different points of view like the Father and the Son.

Then think, put our thinking into it, "oh these are multiple beings and persons.

How can God be in the Son but yet the Son prays to the Father God in heaven?

God is everywhere filling earth and heaven. Just one God .






Round 3
Pro
#5
Forfeited
Con
#6
The debate is over.