Instigator / Pro

Taste Battle in Rap: RationalMadman vs Type1


The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

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After 5 votes and with 18 points ahead, the winner is...

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Contender / Con

The definition of 'taste battle' shall be a battle of both displaying raps and justifying the beauty of those raps to the ears and emotions as well as brain of the listener. The raps that soothe are not inherently better or worse but the raps that displease are inherently bad.

BOTH SIDES ARE SAYING THEIRS IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER, there is no allowance for a 'he is equally good to be' angle for Con to take.

Round 1

The Rap with London Cockney accent is called Grime but is 100% a rap-form genre that counts as rap.

Some of my arguments are going to seem like assumptions to others but I would not be having this debate if I didn't know my opponent well and trust they'd be a good sport and not just copy my taste and do some troll method or gear up voters to revenge vote me etc.

This guy and I have history from another site and based on what I know of him, he sees rap as speech first, poetry second and music last of all.

I, on the other hand see rap as poetry first, music second and speech last and this has led to us both disagreeing on which raps make rap the best genre but both agreeing it's miles ahead of other genres in lyrical sophistication and delivery of complex but still emotional messages.

We both adore 'smart rap' but I think we differ severely in how much we value 'smart' in the rap and how much we value 'pleasure to the ear'. I rank the best rappers as the ones with enough intelligence and complexity to make you drop your jaw but never too much complexity to make you have to pick up a dictionary or google more than say 2 lines of the rap to follow the metaphors so on and so forth. Type1 prefers raps where one has to pick up a dictionary, play it in slow motion and study the lyrics for 40 minutes to fully grasp the song.

I am just going to give two examples of raps where our tastes 'combine' or 'collide' in a most certain way:

Alright now it's time to hone on in on 'me' and my masterful mix. There is literally no other human near my level of comprehending pleasure combined with sophistication in rap and at least 3 of Type1's favorites I introduced to him whereas the reverse is 0. He may think he introduced Joyner Lucas to me but he's incorrect, I just didn't let him know I knew of him before he posted the guy to a debate.

I'm going to go ahead and just dish out the best of all 'genres within the genre' of rap so on and so forth.

Note: I will go into details about my raps and what is in them and why that makes them superior next round.

Cool- Headed Gangster/Mafiosa/Thug

These are the raps you listen to in order to feel like an ice-cold type. This is not hot-headed violence gangster rap, that is not what this sub-genre is, this is about the stone-faced, patient but ruthless type. This is also not promiscuous type of gangster, this is the ruthless, rational type. < Include the timestamp if you c+p

Strange/Eccentric Badboy

These raps make you giggle sometimes even at the rapper themselves but feel 'badboy' or mischievous in a dominant manner overall with the vibe.

Raw Alpha Male Raps

Title Speaks for itself. This is the type of rap that make women aroused and men drop their jaws at the combination of skill, aura and ear-pleasure put forth to them as an audience to the rap. It gets the blood pumping, the teeth baring and the confidence boosted THROUGH THE ROOF if you try to empathise with the rapper instead of thinking 'you' means you.

Bittersweet Raps

Sad, regretful but positive vibes somehow.

Alpha Female Raps

Extremely complex combination of being simultaneously effeminate while being severely domineering.

Shut up and do the work Raps

^ Speaks for itself, shhh.

Hindsight Raps

If I could just do life over again...

Untouchable Calm Guru Raps

Like a monk except a real G.

Kill Yourself Raps

Not 'yourself' as in the listener but actually maybe even the listener too, it's about expressing rage and fury through rap.

Therapy Rant Raps

Imagine unloading all your inner demons onto a therapist as a rap, yeah that's this for the artists.

Never Ever Mess With Me Again Raps

Speaks for itself ^^

Hero Complex Raps

Some rappers see themselves as heroes. That's not to say they aren't.

Stick With It Raps

You know when you start to doubt that you were born to be a god in human form? Yeah, these raps fill you with the confidence.

Hot-headed Gangster/Mafioso/Thug Rap

Inverse of the Cool-headed Gangster/Mafioso/Thug sub-genre. These are the passionate Gangsters.

Effeminate Male Raps

Men getting in touch with their tender side.

Raw Skill Rap

The pleasure to have such elegant flow while rapping in an ear-pleasing way and still maintaining high quality lyrics.

Mentally Ill Rap

Rap where the rapper portrays themselves in a less sane or sober state. Can often involve love but not necessarily,

Respecting Other Rappers in a Rap

^ Speaks for itself

I wouldn't say I see rap as "speech first" but rather I would put it like this- both poetry and music are a type of speech (as in communication) or in other words expression through art so what they convey and how well they convey it is at the "heart" of the art form. This essentially means that the poetry/music is about a message or feeling you are trying to convey. So the speech part (i.e the message itself) is what is behind the art and the art itself is how you convey it, both are meaningless without the other so neither is really more important. The message needs to be good and the conveyance needs to be good in order for it to be good.
That being said, your favorite rappers are very good at conveying but often lack true substance in what they convey, whereas my favorite rappers are not the best conveyers (although they are still good) but what they convey is golden. While I understand a true balance is best, my favorites remain because number one that is my personal preference and number two I honestly think they do have the best balance, and are highly capable of the more musical side of rap as well as the poetic whereas other rappers who may be able to rhyme more, flow better, and sound better etc. would never be able to do what K-Rino or Canibus do in their whole lifetime. 
Also I would like to say that RM's objection to rap that has high vocabulary is nonsensical, to me that is no different than saying something "sounds too good" or "flows too well". The complexity and intelligence etc. is just another metric of improvement to me, I want it to flow as well as possible and rhyme as well as possible and sound as well as possible AND be as intelligent as possible.
Not to mention, I think you are exaggerating a bit. Do you REALLY need to work that hard just to understand a K-rino rap? I have had to look up some words listening to intellectual rap but it's not as bad as you describe.
Anyway, without further ado, here are some raps...

1) science rap
2) gangsta/drill rap
3) poetry rap
4) "evil" rap and horrorcore
5) occult rap
6) conspiracy/political rap
7) comedy rap
8) raw lyricism
9) human condition rap
10) "extraterrestrial intelligence" rap

Round 2

It's time to go ham on this opponent. It's time to demolish his case, support my own and get the voters cheering for me and jeering at him.

Rap is not speech using rap to get a message across, it is music and poetry that happens to have meaning and I will prove that in this Round of debate. I am going to not only prove that but prove that even if we do go into conspiracy theory rap and rap where intellectually-stimulating speech is involved, my taste is superior to Pro's (although it does overlap in places).

After proving that, I will go on to prove that my taste in rap is superior and that if I and Con actually entered the 'rap game' (rap industry combined with reputation as a rapper), my knowledge, comprehension of how to make good rap and capacity to gain clout would make me end up the superior rapper.

Just to prove how 'in touch' with the rap-game I am, this music video came out today (either Aug 22 or 23 depending where in the world you are) and it's unironically my theme tune on this website and in general:

Let's first establish what exactly Rap is and that it's fundamentally a significant and quite dominant form of both poetry and music.

For the first time ever, R&B/hip-hop has surpassed rock to become the biggest music genre in the U.S. in terms of total consumption, according to Nielsen Music's 2017 year-end report.

Eight of the 10 most listened-to artists of the year came from the R&B/hip-hop genre, led by Drake, with 4.8 million album equivalent units (combined album sales, song downloads and streams), and Kendrick Lamar (3.7 million). Rap also experienced the second-highest growth of any genre, spiking 25% over 2016 and coming in just behind Latin music, which was up 30% in total volume.

Hip-hop dominated the charts in 2017, with viral hits such as Lil Uzi Vert's XO Tour Llif3, Future's Mask Off and Post Malone's Congratulations ranking among the 10 best-selling tracks of last year, according to BuzzAngle Music and Mediabase. Rap up-and-comers Cardi B (Bodak Yellow) and Migos (Bad and Boujee) each spent multiple weeks atop the Billboard Hot 100 with their respective singles, while four of the five Grammy nominees for album of the year were R&B or hip-hop artists.

Album and song sales were down overall in 2017, dropping 19% against the year before. But streaming surged in their wake, growing 43% with 400 billion streams total (compared with 252 billion in 2016).

More insights from Nielsen about the year in music:

  • Ed Sheeran's Divide was the most popular album of the year with 2.8 million album equivalent units. It was followed by Kendrick Lamar's Damn. (2.7 million) and Taylor Swift's Reputation (2.3 million).
  • Reputation was released in mid-November, but still sold a whopping 1.9 million copies in 2017 — enough to make it the top-selling album of 2017. It's one of only two albums to surpass 1 million in sales last year, along with Divide.
  • Luis Fonsi and Daddy Yankee's summer anthem Despacito featuring Justin Bieber was the biggest song of the year in terms of total sales (2.7 million downloads) and streams (1.3 billion).
  • Streaming now accounts for 54% of total audio consumption, composing the majority of audio consumption for the first time ever. (For comparison, streams accounted for 38% of total audio consumption in 2016 and a mere 22% in 2015.)
  • 19 songs surpassed 500 million streams in 2017; of those, 17 came from the R&B/hip-hop genre.
  • Despite rap's dominance on streaming platforms, rock continues to be the biggest genre for album sales, accounting for 35% of all albums sold.
  • Vinyl LP sales were up 9% from 2016 and now account for 14% of all physical albums sold. The most popular? The Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, thanks in part to a deluxe anniversary reissue on vinyl.
- Patrick Ryan Published 4:27 p.m. UTC Jan 4, 2018 physical albums sold. The most popular? The Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, thanks in part to a deluxe anniversary reissue on vinyl.

In case you're unsure if Hip-Hop is Rap, the confusion is understandable. As you can see by one of the first things I said in Round 1 there's a lot of 'off-shoots' to rap and although a lot of people would disagree with me, a new phenomenon known as Mumble Rap is actually its own genre and yet it is still Rap. Grime is absolutely rap and yet it is not Rap, it is its own genre and this is not a contradiction because of the following:


In this day and age there is so much music out there that the lines between genres are blurred, but this isn’t necessarily a bad thing…

Hip-hop, rap and grime all seem to hold similar elements and fit within one another. Without realising, you could be listening to multiple genres at once but how, why, and why do we love it so much?

Rhyme became rap, rap became hip-hop and hip-hop became grime. Each step of this musical evolution oozes excellence due to the creativity of the artist’s voice and mind.

The roots of rap date back to the early 1900s and West Africa, where stories were told rhythmically over drum beats and decorative instrumental. But the rap we know today moved from Africa over to the US and blessed our ears from the 70s onwards.

Grandmaster Flash And The Furious Five and Salt-N-Pepa from the 80’s exemplify the famous vintage rap sound that we recognise today and I can assure you that, if it hasn’t happened already, these sounds will be cranked up on the stereo at family parties and enjoyed by everyone. That is because 80’s rap is universal, it is positive and upbeat, and generally provokes a party atmosphere. It is often slower than the rap we hear today and usually in a major key (meaning it sounds happy), but we’re not complaining. Uhuhuhuhuh!

Rap today is closer to art than music, the mind boggles at how fast some artists can get words out of their mouths and how someone can think so fast on their feet without making one mistake. Eminem has to be credited here; in his “Rap God” he averaged 6.5 words per second, where ‘normal’ people average at 2.5 words per second, that’s a ridiculous difference and proves that Mr. Marshall Mathers, really is a “super human”.

Rap and hip-hop come as a 2 for 1 deal in today’s music spectrum. Kanye, Kendrick, A$AP Rocky, J. Cole, Drake, Tyga, Jay Z; all black, all male, all dominating the hip-hop music industry, and that’s the name just a few. Hip-hop, like rap, is so versatile; there are almost genres within genres.

Today the consensus among artists and the consumer market is that the tone of the hip-hop song is more negative than in previous years. But this is what sells and what audiences want to hear. It feels truthful from the artists, as if they are telling a story very quickly and to instrumental, this is the beauty of hip-hop: each song has a story and each story is the truth.

Grime, is a fairly new genre, as far as genres go; it is to believed to have originated in Hackney, London, in the early 2000’s. Unlike its predecessors (rap and hip-hop) grime is a genre of British origin, and we here in the UK feel very patriotic about our creation.

Grime is usually accompanied by a garage backbeat, and often the artist has an East London accent, however this is not true with all artists and songs. The songs are generally fast paced and again, skillfully rapped over, by absolute music masterminds.

Stormzy, is one of the most influential names in grime this year; and won the best grime act for the past two years at the MOBO awards. Skepta is also very influential, one of his biggest hits being: “That’s Not Me” which repeats that exact phrase after most statements in the song. The repetitiveness is what makes this genre memorable, and why grime is becoming so big in UK clubs and festivals.

They are the songs that everyone knows and everyone can interact with.

Rap, hip-hop and grime make up a big chunk of the UK music market; each genre is inherently different but incorporates the same elements simultaneously. This is how and why the lines have been blurred, but we love this cocktail of music genres, and with new talent emerging in this market almost everyday, we can’t wait to see what’s next.

The elements that makes rap and grime essentially identical is if we ignore accent, both revolve around taking poetry and making it into music. What hip-hop generally is referring to is the form of rap where there's more music than voice and basically it's a hard beat and big bass that is easy to dance to. This is why when people say Eminem is the best hip-hop artist I laugh because he was one of the first rappers to be totally rap and not at all hip-hop but since this is not clear (the matter of where the boundaries lie) it's safe and even correct to consider, rap, hip-hop and grime as three part of the same genre in my eyes.

What is poetry and what is music? This is very important in comprehending my taste and will end up winning me the debate.


Poetry (ancient Greek: ποιεω (poieo) = I create) is an art form in which human language is used for its aesthetic qualities in addition to, or instead of, its notional and semantic content. It consists largely of oral or literary works in which language is used in a manner that is felt by its user and audience to differ from ordinary prose.

It may use condensed or compressed form to convey emotion or ideas to the reader's or listener's mind or ear; it may also use devices such as assonance and repetition to achieve musical or incantatory effects. Poems frequently rely for their effect on imagery, word association, and the musical qualities of the language used. The interactive layering of all these effects to generate meaning is what marks poetry.

Because of its nature of emphasising linguistic form rather than using language purely for its content, poetry is notoriously difficult to translate from one language into another: a possible exception to this might be the Hebrew Psalms, where the beauty is found more in the balance of ideas than in specific vocabulary. In most poetry, it is the connotations and the "baggage" that words carry (the weight of words) that are most important. These shades and nuances of meaning can be difficult to interpret and can cause different readers to "hear" a particular piece of poetry differently. While there are reasonable interpretations, there can never be a definitive interpretation.

Nature of poetry
Poetry can be differentiated most of the time from prose, which is language meant to convey meaning in a more expansive and less condensed way, frequently using more complete logical or narrative structures than poetry does. This does not necessarily imply that poetry is illogical, but rather that poetry is often created from the need to escape the logical, as well as expressing feelings and other expressions in a tight, condensed manner. English Romantic poet John Keats termed this escape from logic Negative Capability. A further complication is that prose poetry combines the characteristics of poetry with the superficial appearance of prose, such as in Robert Frost's poem, "Home Burial." Other forms include narrative poetry and dramatic poetry, both of which are used to tell stories and so resemble novels and plays. However, both these forms of poetry use the specific features of verse composition to make these stories more memorable or to enhance them in some way.

What is generally accepted as "great" poetry is debatable in many cases. "Great" poetry usually follows the characteristics listed above, but it is also set apart by its complexity and sophistication. "Great" poetry generally captures images vividly and in an original, refreshing way, while weaving together an intricate combination of elements like theme tension, complex emotion, and profound reflective thought. For examples of what is considered "great" poetry, visit the Pulitzer prize and Nobel prize sections for poetry.

The Greek verb ποιεω [poiéo (= I make or create)], gave rise to three words: ποιητης [poiet?s (= the one who creates)], ποιησις [poíesis (= the act of creation)] and ποιημα [poíema (= the thing created)]. From these we get three English words: poet (the creator), poesy (the creation) and poem (the created). A poet is therefore one who creates and poetry is what the poet creates. The underlying concept of the poet as creator is not uncommon. For example, in Anglo-Saxon a poet is a scop (shaper or maker) and in Scots makar.

Sound in poetry
Perhaps the most vital element of sound in poetry is rhythm. Often the rhythm of each line is arranged in a particular meter. Different types of meter played key roles in Classical, Early European, Eastern and Modern poetry. In the case of free verse, the rhythm of lines is often organized into looser units of cadence.

Poetry in English and other modern European languages often uses rhyme. Rhyme at the end of lines is the basis of a number of common poetic forms, such as ballads, sonnets and rhyming couplets. However, the use of rhyme is not universal. Much modern poetry, for example, avoids traditional rhyme schemes. Furthermore, Classical Greek and Latin poetry did not use rhyme. In fact, rhyme did not enter European poetry at all until the High Middle Ages, when it was adopted from the Arabic language. The Arabs have always used rhymes extensively, most notably in their long, rhyming qasidas. Some classical poetry forms, such as Venpa of the Tamil language, had rigid grammars (to the point that they could be expressed as a context-free grammar), which ensured a rhythm.

Alliteration played a key role in structuring early Germanic and English forms of poetry (called alliterative verse), akin to the role of rhyme in later European poetry. The alliterative patterns of early Germanic poetry and the rhyme schemes of Modern European poetry alike both include meter as a key part of their structure, which determines when the listener expects instances of rhyme or alliteration to occur. In this sense, both alliteration and rhyme, when used in poetic structures, help to emphasise and define a rhythmic pattern. By contrast, the chief device of Biblical poetry in ancient Hebrew was parallelism, a rhetorical structure in which successive lines reflected each other in grammatical structure, sound structure, notional content, or all three; a verse form that lent itself to antiphonal or call- and-response performance.

In addition to the forms of rhyme, alliteration and rhythm that structure much poetry, sound plays a more subtle role in even free verse poetry in creating pleasing, varied patterns and emphasising or sometimes even illustrating semantic elements of the poem. Devices such as alliteration, assonance, consonance, dissonance and internal rhyme are among the ways poets use sound. Euphony refers to the musical, flowing quality of words arranged in an aesthetically pleasing way.

Poetry and form
Compared with prose, poetry depends less on the linguistic units of sentences and paragraphs, and more on units of organisation that are purely poetic. The typical structural elements are the line, couplet, strophe, stanza, and verse paragraph.

Lines may be self-contained units of sense, as in the well-known lines from William Shakespeare's Hamlet:

To be, or not to be: that is the question.
Alternatively a line may end in mid-phrase or sentence:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
this linguistic unit is completed in the next line,
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
This technique is called enjambment, and is used to create a sense of expectation in the reader and/or to add a dynamic to the movement of the verse.
In many instances, the effectiveness of a poem derives from the tension between the use of linguistic and formal units. With the advent of printing, poets gained greater control over the visual presentation of their work. As a result, the use of these formal elements, and of the white space they help create, became an important part of the poet's toolbox. Modernist poetry tends to take this to an extreme, with the placement of individual lines or groups of lines on the page forming an integral part of the poem's composition. In its most extreme form, this leads to the writing of concrete poetry.

Poetry and rhetoric
Rhetorical devices such as simile and metaphor are frequently used in poetry. Indeed, Aristotle wrote in his Poetics that "the greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor". However, particularly since the rise of Modernism, some poets have opted for reduced use of these devices, preferring rather to attempt the direct presentation of things and experiences. Other 20th-century poets, however, particularly the surrealists, have pushed rhetorical devices to their limits, making frequent use of catachresis. (but their article itself is based on the Wikipedia page which has references of its own)

Music is essential to many of our lives. We listen to it when waking up, while in transit, at work, and with our friends. For many, music is like a constant companion. It can bring us joy and motivate us, accompany us through difficult times, and alleviate our worries.

Music is much more than mere entertainment. It has been a feature of every known human society—anthropologists and sociologists have yet to find a single culture throughout the course of human history that has not had music. In fact, many evolutionary psychologists today make the argument that music predated language. Primitive tribes and religious practices have used music to reach enlightened states for thousands of years, and Pythagoras used music to heal different psychological and physical ailments. Currently, cutting-edge scientific research has shown the effect that music has on the brain, the individual, and society.

Not only does music reach us on intellectual, social, and emotional levels, but many describe it as spiritual or mystical. The use of melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic devices in music can induce a psychological state in both the musicians and the listener that is beyond words to describe. Music can bring us back to ourselves, be our mirror, and show us a side of us we may have long forgotten or never knew existed.

Even though we are constantly exposed music in our daily lives, we rarely stop to actually think about what it is. After all, what exactly is music?

Fundamentally, music is a combination of sounds, and sound is vibration. One of the most succinct definitions of music comes from the Italian composer Ferruccio Busoni, who said that, “Music is sonorous air.” It's extraordinary to think that a simple vibration unseen by the human eye can facilitate a deeply rich emotional experience, alter perception and consciousness, and induce ecstatic states of being. What is the process by which these sonic vibratory frequencies are heard by the listener, creating a profound psychological experience for them? How does something as fleeting as "sonorous air" have such a healing and therapeutic effect on people? And how does it facilitate personal growth?

Now I want you start to understand the difference in our tastes is actually that I value the poetry and music more than the details of what is spoken whereas Type1 values both of these far less than the exact content of the speech and details which simply happen to rhyme. Metaphors are a choice according to him and all elements that make poetry what it is are somehow just a means to communicate some grander message but this is inherently a corrupt interpretation of the rap/grime/hip-hop genre and a really inefficient way to communicate instead of a non-rhyming, non-rhythmic speech.

Why would you want to give a detailed speech about Communism or conspiracy theory through a rap instead of a straight up speech? This is not terrible but this is far from being the best rap and I will tell you why. The raps I rank as the best of all time all require you to simply have an urge to listen to good music and insanely-high-skilled poetry and you will enjoy them. On the other hand, while some of our overlap is indeed on raps that are musically supreme and poetically so too (such as Anilyst - Seff and Eminem - Wicked Ways which Type1 put amongst his favorites and which I totally agree are phenomenal raps but personally didn't feel were pleasant enough to put with my list of the greats) it is also true that whenever he posts a rap that is by an artist I didn't post it tends to be that our overlap stops and he's posting a really unpleasant rap that you're probably only going to enjoy if you pay close attention to the lyrics and even then only watch once whereas mine are all addictive and the kind you will replay 20 times and still love.

The latest rap out by my single favourite rapper of the modern age (Chris Webby) is the following:

It doesn't matter what motive you have for listening tor rap, he pleases, impresses and stimulates the brain of a listener of any IQ. This is because his capability to access all the listen elements of poetry on top of making the music itself pleasing is unparalleled by other rappers (I would say Minaj actually comes close as does Hopsin but because they both don't go as hard on the lyrical complexity as Webby does and they tend to be unnecessarily aggressive and inappropriate I prefer Webby). If you listen to this on HD/HQ it's even more obvious how far ahead he is to K-Rino in pleasing the ear drum while still being incredibly high in his capability to rhyme with lyrics that could stimulate the greatest of minds when appreciating the eloquence of it in a poetic sense.

I accidentally posted a rap by Futuristic that has since been ruined by copyright claims on the beat (his King Speech one) so to make up for it I will put out 2 similar-themed tracks by Futuristic:

Also, this is a good eccentric badboy type rap that I didn't post:

In Round 3 I will go more into the issue with the choices Pro has made. For now I will finish by explaining why the 'speech-first' ethos in rap is flawed. If you want to make a speech with high detail and intellectual, very important topics imagine how much effort you are wasting by making it rhyme in a rhythmic manner... You clearly would be ruining the quality of the speech by forcing it to be a rap. If you want to make an earth-shattering speech then make it, you even could have background music but why make it rhyme in a complex way that is going to make people confused if they should be listening to the detailed content or enjoying the song in a head-bopping, body-shaking manner that is an escape from reality that enables them to feel a lot while thinking less and leaving stress behind at the door when entering the rap.
Round 3
My songs can be enjoyed both as background music and as forefront.

Type1 has songs where you need to pay close attention to even comprehend the lyrics but the voice and beats are so unpleasant usually that the closer attention punishes you.

Round 4
Round 5