Instigator / Pro
7
1731
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167
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73.05%
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Topic
#3903
Star Wars: On balance, the battle of Endor is more winnable than the battle of Scarif for the Rebels
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
Intelligence_06
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 4
- Time for argument
- Two weeks
- Max argument characters
- 18,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
4
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Description
Assumptions:
1. We only consider the Prequels, the OT, and Rogue One as canon here. Only these 7 movies and anything appearing in them.
2. The Battle of Endor takes place in 4 ABY. The Battle of Scarif takes place in 0 BBY. Both are conflicts between the rebels and the Empire. Any other battle with the same name would be disregarded.
3. For the Battle of Scarif, we assume that the freight ship used by Rogue 1 is sure to arrive on Scarif, in which Rogue 1 has already formed.
4. For the Battle of Endor, we assume that Luke is sure to arrive in the Endor System.
5. We disregard any plot armor. Sure, the movies only consider the possibilities of the rebel alliance winning, although the chance is small for either of the two.
6. Wookiepedia is a valid source, unless any cited page is currently under construction or controversy.
Round 1
Pro
#1
I never thought this debate will be accepted within 1 day. A suprise to be sure, but a welcome one.
1. What counts as Rebel Victory?
I will rule out several criteria for rebel victory for both battles here. I believe all bulletpoints listed are common knowledge but criticism can be put upon if valid evidence can be its aid.
Scarif
- Rebels successfully acquiring a copy of the blueprints of DS1 & out of the control of Imperial forces
- The Rebels have to actually transmit the data to outside Scarif so the information is available to all rebels, not just Rogue 1
- Unless the DS plans are successfully brought back to the rebel base OR having it evacuated to a location discoverable by others BUT outside the responsibility of the team that originally received the information, the battle is NOT considered a Rebel victory as it would otherwise do nothing
Endor
- Darth Sidious is Killed
- Without him, a major chunk of the inner workings of the empire would be reduced to stone so I would call it a win
- The DS2 is destroyed
- Preferrably with Palpatine stuck in the DS2
2. Difficulty I: Infiltration
One major factor in the rebel victory in Scarif that didn't play as much of a role in Endor is that the main team had to infiltrate. In fact, on Endor itself, they have got a free translator with them: C-3PO. The most difficult part for the alliance army forces is to convince the Ewoks to destroy the protective mechanism of DS2 on the forest moon.
At 55 minutes into Ep6, all Han needed for landing on Endor was an older clearance code that still checks out. Yeah, and that is pretty much all "infiltration" the battle of Endor requires. The stormtrooper forces on Endor are so garbage that Ewoks can vanquish them using tree logs and manual wings, so the hiding from these guys can be considered negligible in difficulty, at least compared to what the guys on Scarif did. Although the main team having plot armor is something existing for all these main movies, it is to be pointed out that although 1 great blaster shot to save the day is not representative of the overall stormtrooper forces, the force deployed on Endor was running into trees and being taken out by single shots possibly every single minute. That is how inexcusable they are at their jobs.
On the other hand, we have all these ways the Rogue 1 team could lose before even getting the message out of Scarif:
- The freight shuttle failing the initial inspection(meaning they can't even enter the stronghold to begin with)
- K-2SO saying "I have a bad feeling about this" a bit too loud, revealing themselves
- Bodhi throwing out the mine a little too late
- Chirrut's force senses not working resulting in the switch not correctly activated(resulting in lack of communcation between the ground and space)
- Jyn, Andor and K-2SO not passing that one(or any) Imperial post
- Jyn failing to correctly identify "stardust" resulting in the wrong thing being sent
- Andor failing to climb back to the observatory deck, resulting in Jyn being executed by Krennic
- Generally, the Imperial forces just destroys the Rogue 1 team, period
- The Hammerhead corvette failing to push the 2 Star Destroyers, so the shield is never down, and the rebels lose eventually in a war of attrition
And these are the ways to fail even if the blueprints of DS1 has gotten into the hands of the rebel navy.
- Admiral Raddus not being there
- Tantive IV not being there
- Either or Both of the two ships being destroyed too quickly
- Darth Vader grabs the card with the compressed file for the blueprints before the rebel soldiers can transport them to the Tantive IV
- The gunners on the Star Destroyer shooting down the pod containing R2-D2 before it lands on Tatooine
I label the ones that are the most likely in bold. Con can refute any or even all of them as they wish.
For Chirrut's role, he is a blind force-sensitive who wasn't even considered by the Jedi Council, and he is walking along an active battlefield with nothing but the sheer guidance of the force. We have no reason to trust him in the first place except for the fact that he is possibly the only one present with the force.
For Andor appearing at the last moment to punish Krennic, we have no idea in fact how the heck he climbed up there so quickly having took a fall that great. In fact, it is not impossible that Krennic's bodyguards just shot him or Jyn dead on the spot.
For general destruction, just look at how much rebel losses incur at the closure of a single gate: About 10 X-wings. This is used for a later comparison: That is about 10 times the losses required to destroy a super star destroyer! Having that many crafts inside the shield by the time it closes is already a miracle, and even inside, the squadrons would still be faced with the ground artillery, the AT-ATs, the TIEs, etc. Given how unlikely it already is for Jyn and Andor to climb up to the emission dish in the first place, the most likely outcome out of this would be that the rebel troopers are wound-in battle and the message is never even being emitted.
And let's not even get into why the gunners onboard the Devastator didn't shoot the pod. It was even suggested by one of the personnel, at the start of Ep4.
3. Lack of Difficulty: Endor
For Endor, taking down the DS2 shield wasn't that hard of a job(compared to how tight the crew was at Scarif, at least) due to the incompetence of the forest stormtroopers. Taking down the executor wasn't very hard either, as Admiral Piett has already lowered the guard due to the promising signs ordered from the Emperor as Luke was taken inside the DS2 along with his father. Having the guard on the Executor down means that the deflecter shields are able to be taken down, which is EXACTLY what happened, at the cost of perhaps one or two fighters. Then, 1 A-wing was all that it takes to dismantle the main bridge, making it lose power and collapse into the surface of DS2. Although this was a miracle, the fact that the Executor has no deflector shields left means that having the main bridge destroyed was only a matter of time.
Since the DS2 is nevertheless still under construction, the paths would be even less filled than the DS1. At Yavin, it takes several flights of X and Y wings to fire 1 torpedo into a small hole leading to the destruction of DS1, however, at DS2, the main reactor and the path leading to it at the moment of the battle was big enough that the Millenium Falcon can fly through it, meaning that as long as the rebels have enough pilots, destroying the main reactor would be something that is even easier than what they did in the Yavin system.
This leads to perhaps only 1 factor that is not certain: Luke's mental state. If Luke was even slightly angry, he would flinch towards the darkness of the force and walk the same path down which his father has traveled through. However, let's not forget:
- At the time, Luke is not as strong as Vader, who is not as strong as Palpatine
- When Palpatine is torturing Luke, Vader is capable of throwing Palpatine down the shaft
Or, in other words, it is almost impossible for Luke to first defeat Vader's red saber and kill the purposefully unguarded emperor and fall to the dark side. These three individuals can sense each other, with Vader knowing Luke is his son. So:
- It is almost sure that Luke will lose the lightsaber duel eventually and get electrocuted by Palpatine sooner or later
- So, it is almost sure that Palpatine will be thrown down the shaft of DS2 by Vader.
And, the destruction of DS2 is probably a MUCH EASIER task than retrieving the DS1 plans, meaning that the battle of Endor is almost surely more winnable for the rebels than the battle of Scarif.
One may question, but what if the reactor was destroyed faster than Luke could get out? I mean, Luke was almost too late as the fire exited just moments before his shuttle did. The question thus becomes: Can the rebellion live on, without Luke?
Yes.
- Leia, knowing she is force-sensitive too, can be a substitute to Luke in, probably a year, knowing how talented the gene lineage is.
- The rebellion still has Han, Lando, and numerous other ace pilots.
- Ackbar and several other commanders are still alive.
The rebellion will probably turn into a line setup similar to that of the resistance in Disney Canon episodes 7-9, but that is another topic for another debate. Bottom Line: The rebellion will still exist without Luke.
What else? Without Palpatine, how would the empire still function? It won't. Given the entirely selfish system created centered around Palpatine the dark Sith lord himself, there is no direct successor, as Vader would not rule like it was even if he survived long enough. In the end, the rebellion is on average still in average shape, but the empire is in pieces.
4. Conclusions
- The success on Scarif was depended on several chained events that depended on luck.
- The succes at Endor wasn't as depended on luck. Although the speed at which the rebellion acted was pretty lucky, these tasks ought to be done eventually due to how little direct blockage are present to prevent the rebels from fulfilling them.
- The Emperor dying at Endor is a possibly guaranteed moment.
- Due to these, I thus conclude that the battle of Endor is more winnable for the rebels than the battle of Scarif.
5. Sources
I expect my opponent to at least have watched the movies in order to even be here. Most of my references to the movies are common knowledge to anyone who has watched said movies in detail.
- Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope
- Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
- Rogue One: A Star Wars Story.
Con
#2
I couldn’t resist the opportunity to partake in a discussion about one of my favorite franchises.
The Battle of Scarif was actually an easier fight for the Rebels than The Battle of Endor.
- Rule #1 for fighting The Rebels at The Battle of Endor:
Don’t let politicians make military strategies.
- Rule #2 for fighting The Rebels at The Battle of Scarif:
Capitalize your main resources.
Taking out Palpatine isn’t necessarily a victory for the Rebels, as there is still a chain of succession. Mas Amedda, the head of the Imperial government was established as a failsafe long before the downfall (No pun intended.) of the Emperor.
The following strategies employed by the Rebels at the Battle of Scarif.
- Luck was on The Rebels’ Side.
It can be argued that the Empire had the advantage technologically with their formidable Starfighters, but the elements of surprise and unpredictability gave the Rebels a guaranteed victory.
2. The Alliance puppeteered this perfectly.
This was more a battle of psychology than it was a battle of forces. In knowing the Empire would not be expecting this attack, they successfully mentally outmaneuvered them and managed the victory by taking them off-guard.
3. They dealt their hand correctly.
By not showing their cards, they employed their strategies tactfully and it paid off.
Why The Battle of Endor was harder.:
- A test of forces.
Since a lot of the Rebels’ victory at The Battle of Scarif was more mind games than anything else, the Battle of Endor was more about the physicality of trading blows.
2. Everything was at stake.
The two most dangerous people in the world are those with everything to lose and those with nothing to lose. The Battle of Endor inevitably required the most effort from both The Empire and the Rebels.
3. The Rebels were becoming predictable.
They basically resorted to the same strategy every-time. The Empire was able to predict a lot of these oncoming attacks and circumvent them.
4. A Chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Say for instance, the opposing forces utilized by the Rebels. They can’t afford a lot of Cruisers, so they can only rely on starfighters and small corvettes. This is a pretty big deal when you’re just Athens going up against Persia.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Rebuttals
- Rule #1 for fighting The Rebels at The Battle of Endor:
Don’t let politicians make military strategies.
Except military strategies were made by a corrupt(and evil and arrogant) politician, and after immediately seeing somewhat clearance, he just allowed the Executor to stand there, which proved a failure as forces as small as a single A-wing is sufficient to destroy the main bridge of the executor after a few losses incurred to shoot down the main reflector shield generators. In fact, the liability of the executor being there is in itself a mounting problem, as many promising military officers are there at once. Yes, in that hunk of durasteel that can't go fast and will become a moving target once the shields are down.
In contrast, an admiral with elevated utilization of skill compared to Piett, Thrawn, never even voluntarily used a super star destroyer ever. The reasoning is that a super star destroyer, although having 10x the size and 10x the firepower, is basically just 10 ISDs bunched together never able to leave one for another. Therefore, if the main bridge has fallen, the entire length of the spaceship dies. Using the Executor as a superweapon, a wild card or as a mobile operational base would be better off than using it as an in-formation flagship.
The fact they use the Executor as an in-formation flagship means that it was not intended to be under significant attack, or that they simply underestimated the power of the rebellion. And let's not even elaborate on the DS2, which is a BIGGER version of the DS1, even though the approximate purpose can be filled by something smaller and less spherical, the Tarkin.
In conclusion, the fact the emperor allowed the Rebels into the Endor system in of itself is a mistake.
Taking out Palpatine isn’t necessarily a victory for the Rebels, as there is still a chain of succession. Mas Amedda, the head of the Imperial government was established as a failsafe long before the downfall (No pun intended.) of the Emperor.
We have to understand the objective of a single battle. Let me give some examples.
- Just because Nazi Germany lost the war does not mean the invasion on Poland and France is a German loss.
- The battle of Hoth eventually lead to things that eventually lead to a rebel victory.
As how we may dispose of Mas Amedda, that is an entirely different matter that is basically impossible for it to be solved on Endor. Keep in mind, we are not assuming that the rebels may win the war simply from Endor, we are assuming a rebel victory just on the battle for Endor, and I would consider killing the Emperor a sound victory for the alliance.
The following strategies employed by the Rebels at the Battle of Scarif.
- Luck was on The Rebels’ Side.
It can be argued that the Empire had the advantage technologically with their formidable Starfighters, but the elements of surprise and unpredictability gave the Rebels a guaranteed victory.
Luck was not and never intrinsically with rebels, even if they exhibit statistical correlation. There is no causation between luck and the faction one is on.
As for the unpredictability, calling it a guaranteed victory for the rebels is ignoring:
- The times where the success of the entire battle is down to an unpredictable act relied on a single person, where the single person could arguably fail in any one of them:
- Chirrut has to switch on a lever across an active battlefield with nothing but force as guidance
- Jyn has to climb up an entire facility tower with a hard disk drive the size of a television on her back, which she ASSUMED it to be what she is looking for
- The rebel soldiers have to pass the card containing the compressed information to inside Tantive IV, facing against the second most power force-sensitive person in the Empire who is sufficiently fluent in the art of force kinetics
And out in which one, are we to say it is guaranteed? And let's not forget that the rebels could solely lose by a smaller force in attrition.
What did the Empire prepare for on Scarif? Trained ground troops everywhere, mobile star destroyers in the sky along with a turreted gate.
What did the Empire prepare for on Endor? Lame ground troops everywhere, and two near immobile hunks of steel driven by arrogance.
The Alliance puppeteered this perfectly.This was more a battle of psychology than it was a battle of forces. In knowing the Empire would not be expecting this attack, they successfully mentally outmaneuvered them and managed the victory by taking them off-guard.
In both cases, the rebels used their advantage to their possibly max extent. However, this does not prove a battle is more winnable than the other.
- A test of forces.
Since a lot of the Rebels’ victory at The Battle of Scarif was more mind games than anything else, the Battle of Endor was more about the physicality of trading blows.
The DS2 is protected by ground forces so lame they crash into tree trunks running away from ewoks along with a ventilation shaft so big the entire millenium falcon can fit through. And I have already said how vulnerable the executor is above. The empire had more forces, yet they left an even larger gap open for occupation.
Everything was at stake.The two most dangerous people in the world are those with everything to lose and those with nothing to lose.
Except since Darth Vader knows that Luke is his son, and Luke is probably way too weak to overpower Palpatine, this is pretty much a guaranteed Palpatine death as Darth Vader's attitude would very likely shift when his son is under attack.
The Rebels were becoming predictable.They basically resorted to the same strategy every-time. The Empire was able to predict a lot of these oncoming attacks and circumvent them.
How? Please present evidence.
A Chain is only as strong as its weakest link.Say for instance, the opposing forces utilized by the Rebels. They can’t afford a lot of Cruisers, so they can only rely on starfighters and small corvettes. This is a pretty big deal when you’re just Athens going up against Persia.
As the machinery gets larger, the mobility decreases. The essential design flaws on the executor and the DSII will just make it more likely to be taken down. That is EXACTLY what happened on Endor.
Con
#4
There are for all intents and purpose several circumstances that significantly distinguished The Battle of Scarif from The Battle of Endor.
Scarif:
- The goal is to steal the DS plans.
- Infiltrate and transmit the data back to Rogue One.
Endor:
- Disable the shield generator.
- Destroy the second Death Star.
Since the Imperial defenses on Scarif didn’t actually see this coming, infiltration is actually easier. This is more of a test of camouflage and stealth than pure firepower. While their cover was blown, the Rebels were more than capable of fending off the foot soldiers. But even if the Rebels fail in their quest, it doesn’t mean the end of the Rebellion.
Now with Endor, the Rebels require everything in their arsenal and the stakes are much higher. If they lose, the Rebellion is over as we know it. Their finisher requires the ultimate offense, but what’s worse is they can’t make a move until Han and Leia disable the reactor shield. Their victory depends on Han and Leia’s success.
Every moment spent is just another minute closer to their doom.
That is without considering that The Battle of Endor NEEDS pilots like Lando to even have a chance of victory. Scarif?? Not so much.
For Andor appearing at the last moment to punish Krennic, we have no idea in fact how the heck he climbed up there so quickly having took a fall that great. In fact, it is not impossible that Krennic's bodyguards just shot him or Jyn dead on the spot.
Rebuttal 1: Sneaking past Imperial Officers is actually too easy in the STW universe because enemies can blend in by literally standing in front of them, hiding in plain sight.
And for a skilled marksman like Andor, blasting away Krennic’s bodyguards off-guard before they even spot him shouldn’t be too difficult.
For Chirrut's role, he is a blind force-sensitive who wasn't even considered by the Jedi Council, and he is walking along an active battlefield with nothing but the sheer guidance of the force. We have no reason to trust him in the first place except for the fact that he is possibly the only one present with the force.
Rebuttal 2: Chirrut has proven to be an invaluable asset, specifically when you’re cornered or outnumbered by enemies. It is his abilities alone that can give you the headstart needed to leave a mark.
At 55 minutes into Ep6, all Han needed for landing on Endor was an older clearance code that still checks out. Yeah, and that is pretty much all "infiltration" the battle of Endor requires. The stormtrooper forces on Endor are so garbage that Ewoks can vanquish them using tree logs and manual wings, so the hiding from these guys can be considered negligible in difficulty, at least compared to what the guys on Scarif did. Although the main team having plot armor is something existing for all these main movies, it is to be pointed out that although 1 great blaster shot to save the day is not representative of the overall stormtrooper forces, the force deployed on Endor was running into trees and being taken out by single shots possibly every single minute. That is how inexcusable they are at their jobs.
Rebuttal 3: The first two sentences are the same circumstances for infiltration at The Battle of Scarif too. The Rebels sneak in through the security gate and are able to keep up this ruse for a little longer.
They’re able to overcome any enemies that blow their cover within two seconds. But on the Endor Moon, the Stormtroopers actually gave pushback, so it was actually more of a fight even with the aid of the Ewoks.
The Battle of Endor is longer.
The Battle of Scarif was essentially more of a stealth mission than a fight, but even still, it isn’t as drawn out as the Battle of Endor. Instead it is quicker and more brief.
The length of time to accomplish something will also reveal a lot about the difficulties. It is this subtle but very relevant clue that draws this premise that Endor was harder.
Round 3
Pro
#5
Sorry for responding near the deadline, I nearly forgot the existence of this debate.
Rebuttals 1: Objectives
Scarif:
- The goal is to steal the DS plans.
- Infiltrate and transmit the data back to Rogue One.
Not exactly. They need to transmit the data back to the main rebel fleet and get away with it. If the Empire prevented the rebels from leaving with it(which they almost did) then the battle is at worst a draw for the imperials. For how many ways the Empire can stop the Rebels from leaving the battlefield even if the data has been transmitted successfully(such as shooting the ships down with blatant firepower, having Darth Vader grabbing the compact disk, etc), this part cannot be left out.
Since the Imperial defenses on Scarif didn’t actually see this coming, infiltration is actually easier. This is more of a test of camouflage and stealth than pure firepower. While their cover was blown, the Rebels were more than capable of fending off the foot soldiers. But even if the Rebels fail in their quest, it doesn’t mean the end of the Rebellion.
You would be correct, but that says nothing. It is incredibly easy for the rebels to go into the Scarif system and leave unscarred, however, it requires a difficult of another magnitude to achiece something, namely to actually receive the transmission and get out of there. The Scarif crew almost didn't get out of there, because Darth Vader himself chased Leia's ship all the way to Tatooine.
How capable are the rebels? Well, even if many of them were agents and armed warriors, they were physically outnumbered: Initially, the rebel force was a freight ship of soldiers, and later came in only a few X-wings and U-wings(which carry troops, but not a lot of them), with heavy casualties just trying to get in from above there(For example, nearly 10 X-wings died for closing the gate). On the other hand, they are by an Imperial stronghold, aided with significantly more stormtroopers and even death troopers. Only 1 force-sensitive was present and even his play of his part was as risky as it was necessary, dying on the battle to show how active the battlefield is.
On the other hand, Endor is not an imperial stronghold, the stormtroopers there are not familiar with the terrain, they have a Jedi Knight, a toolkit, a translator and a jungle packed with potential soldiers, in which the Jedi Knight and the translator bot is able to convince quickly. Endor requires a linear progression scale unlike Scarif's viability for progressing several fronts at once, pushing any step on Endor is easier.
That is without considering that The Battle of Endor NEEDS pilots like Lando to even have a chance of victory. Scarif?? Not so much.
Scarif do need pilots such as Lando on both smaller ships and larger ships to fend off Imperial Ties and Star destroyers up in the air. The only reason Lando wasn't there to begin with was because he hadn't heard of the initiative directly. Also, don't doubt Lando's abilities, or the Millenium Falcon's. Or their affinity, because they work.
Rebuttals 2: Details
Rebuttal 1: Sneaking past Imperial Officers is actually too easy in the STW universe because enemies can blend in by literally standing in front of them, hiding in plain sight.
Going into places with clearance alarms where they are not supposed to go as officers the imperials have never seen before(such as the main database containing the hard drive for Project Stardust) would raise red flags. And sure they noticed. They carpeted the entire stronghold and waged war on the entirety of the rebel forces there, which was less than the imperial forces there for obvious reasons.
And for a skilled marksman like Andor, blasting away Krennic’s bodyguards off-guard before they even spot him shouldn’t be too difficult.
And for professionally trained bodyguards like death troopers escorting Krennic during the mission, shooting down Andor before he even has a chance to fight back shouldn't be difficult. Andor was just an intelligence agent who just so happens to be a former soldier(but probably haven't professionally trained on battlefields for months if not years) with barely any armor, whereas death troopers are professionally stationed there, are professionally trained, and have professional equipment, and is not climbing a pillar full of imperial hard disks. Expectedly, Cassian Andor was shot down, leaving Jyn climbing the rest of the pillar with a hard drive on her back.
And that was not important. A fatigued Jyn cannot defeat Galen Erso on her own, which raises the need for Andor to climb up from the bottom of the pit, not only that, but with such a fast climbing speed so he arrives before Erso shoots her down and returns the disk to the original position as if nothing has happened. Con has never analyzed the viability for that.
Rebuttal 2: Chirrut has proven to be an invaluable asset, specifically when you’re cornered or outnumbered by enemies. It is his abilities alone that can give you the headstart needed to leave a mark.
Pro seems to not deny the severity of the battlefield there: Well it was, and it was also shown that Chirrut was shot right after turning the switch on: proving that he was in fact not immune to these shots even if his force sensitivity has helped him through the distance from the freight ship. Now imagine what happens if he gets shot by an undodgeable rain of blaster shots(which is possible): The ground crew loses connection with the fleet above, significantly reducing the chances of them winning.
Endor has no such weaknesses, especially they have a literal son of a gun that can cut ropes, boost rockets(that feature was never used, but possible). The most dangerous position the rebels were on was when an AT-ST nearly bombed Han, Chewbacca and Leia. Even that, the number of tight situations was nowhere near that of Scarif's. The crew on the moon was quickly able to destroy the shield generator along with a forest of little guys, and the rest was a strategic for the empire and a massacre for the rebels.
Rebuttal 3: The first two sentences are the same circumstances for infiltration at The Battle of Scarif too. The Rebels sneak in through the security gate and are able to keep up this ruse for a little longer.
Scarif was an imperial stronghold with troops stationed there 24/7. Endor has temporary stationed troops without familiarity with the terrain, even crashing into tree logs and being owned by ewoks. The inspection on Endor was looser too: No imperial officer went into their shuttle and all they needed was an OLDER code that checks out.
They’re able to overcome any enemies that blow their cover within two seconds.
Wrong. On scarif, the enemies directly facing Jyn and Andor and the enemies on the sky do count, and both of them are bigger pushbacks than stromtroopers on Endor. Con gave no explicit rebuttals on the enemies on the sky.
The Battle of Endor is longer.The Battle of Scarif was essentially more of a stealth mission than a fight, but even still, it isn’t as drawn out as the Battle of Endor. Instead it is quicker and more brief.
You are correct, though tension was required for all three fronts on Scarif whereas for Endor, the crew can have tea onboard their Mon Cala cruisers due to the massive blind spots created by the massive sphere of DS-2, in which it cannot be defended with star destroyers alone unless we have over 100 of them stationed there alert at all times without strategic mistakes such as that of Piett. After the shield was down, just how immobile imperial equipment are on Endor gave the rebels a large mobility advantage. It doesn't matter how long the battle is on Endor, because the imperial framework alone was flawed.
Judging the difficulty just based on time without further considerations is also flawed, for CON.
I rest my case, Vote PRO.
Con
#6
You would be correct, but that says nothing. It is incredibly easy for the rebels to go into the Scarif system and leave unscarred, however, it requires a difficult of another magnitude to achiece something, namely to actually receive the transmission and get out of there. The Scarif crew almost didn't get out of there, because Darth Vader himself chased Leia's ship all the way to Tatooine.
My opponent concedes this very important point. The Rebels had the Element of Surprise on their side when they were going to Scarif, but Sidious KNEW they were coming when they landed on Endor.
How capable are the rebels? Well, even if many of them were agents and armed warriors, they were physically outnumbered: Initially, the rebel force was a freight ship of soldiers, and later came in only a few X-wings and U-wings(which carry troops, but not a lot of them), with heavy casualties just trying to get in from above there(For example, nearly 10 X-wings died for closing the gate). On the other hand, they are by an Imperial stronghold, aided with significantly more stormtroopers and even death troopers. Only 1 force-sensitive was present and even his play of his part was as risky as it was necessary, dying on the battle to show how active the battlefield is.
The Rebel forces that were fighting in the Battle of Endor were not only outnumbered but were going up against very large military vehicles.
Scarif do need pilots such as Lando on both smaller ships and larger ships to fend off Imperial Ties and Star destroyers up in the air. The only reason Lando wasn't there to begin with was because he hadn't heard of the initiative directly. Also, don't doubt Lando's abilities, or the Millenium Falcon's. Or their affinity, because they work.
Relying on Lando's piloting abilities alone is more risky than on Scarif, given the limitations of the starfighters and corvettes.
You are correct, though tension was required for all three fronts on Scarif whereas for Endor, the crew can have tea onboard their Mon Cala cruisers due to the massive blind spots created by the massive sphere of DS-2, in which it cannot be defended with star destroyers alone unless we have over 100 of them stationed there alert at all times without strategic mistakes such as that of Piett. After the shield was down, just how immobile imperial equipment are on Endor gave the rebels a large mobility advantage. It doesn't matter how long the battle is on Endor, because the imperial framework alone was flawed.
Pro also concedes on the point that the Battle of Endor took longer. The amount of time it takes to accomplish something gives a lot of idea about the difficulty. Each second the battle took was just another moment closer to losing the war.
Vote CON.
Round 4
Pro
#7
Dropped points
None of these are new points.
- Bodhi throwing out the mine a little too late
- Jyn, Andor and K-2SO not passing that one(or any) Imperial post
- Jyn failing to correctly identify "stardust" resulting in the wrong thing being sent
- The Hammerhead corvette failing to push the 2 Star Destroyers, so the shield is never down, and the rebels lose eventually in a war of attrition
These points are made in the R1 argument and has not been touched upon by Con. They may be "less" weighed compared to what Con has touched upon, but none of these points weigh nothing and thus none of them shall be ignored completely. I made it clear that these are open for criticism.
I label the ones that are the most likely in bold. Con can refute any or even all of them as they wish.
I will consider them dropped.
Rebuttals
You would be correct, but that says nothing. It is incredibly easy for the rebels to go into the Scarif system and leave unscarred, however, it requires a difficult of another magnitude to achiece something, namely to actually receive the transmission and get out of there. The Scarif crew almost didn't get out of there, because Darth Vader himself chased Leia's ship all the way to Tatooine.My opponent concedes this very important point. The Rebels had the Element of Surprise on their side when they were going to Scarif, but Sidious KNEW they were coming when they landed on Endor.
Con has not mentioned how Palpatine will play out in this situation since the first round. Palpatine, being the arrogant old fool he was at the end of 4ABY, was of such hubris that he allowed Piett's Executor dreadnought to let the guard down, which quickly translated to...the shield generators shot down, the main bridge breached, and the entire ship destroyed.
Palpatine, also being the powerful old fool he was at the end of 4ABY, was more powerful than Darth Vader and Luke at the time, being able to utilize Force Lightning. Luke has no chance of defeating either his father or the emperor on sheer force, and there is nothing for him to stress on that. He WILL lose the physical fight, which is true, however, Vader is the father of Luke and he knows that, so if Palpatine tortured Luke for a magnitude far across the line, he will attempt to throw Palpatine down the drain. There is no way the fight takes place in another room, and the room has at least one shaft. Palpatine's defeat is probable since the moment he decided to torture Luke. This point was dropped by Con since R2.
If anything, the arrogance of Sidious even if knowing the rebels are coming does not shift the favorability towards the imperial faction at all if not outright lose their potential advantage.
The Rebel forces that were fighting in the Battle of Endor were not only outnumbered but were going up against very large military vehicles.
The size of military vehicles on Endor was so massive they ended up being liabilities instead of assets. The DS2 was allowed to be entered because Palpatine allowed rebels to enter the system, and the guarding on the shield generator of the DS2 was not strong. The DS2 was also so unnecessarily large that it creates a huge amount of blind spots(they aren't even "spots", they are blind regions based on the massive shadows they cast), which cannot be guarded by less than 100 star destroyers(estimate) entirely. The entirety of the DS2 station was protected by, therefore, mostly a station on Endor, with troops that are unfamiliar with the terrain. Additionally, 40m-wide tunnels are dug towards the centre of the reactor, easy not only for star pilots such as Lando but also the X-wings following him. Having the DS2 at this stage of completion guarded mostly by a single station worth of shielding is a strategic disaster. The path to the station was already familiarized by the ewoks they convinced, and the rest of the mission was nothing new for the team lead by Han.
And the executor. Do I need to restate? Less mobile than Rebel cruisers or even ISDs, and when the deflector shields of the ship is down, the entire ship can be blown by a single starfighter. I am not joking. Having equipment this large makes no sense compared to if you break them up into smaller projects. You could build 20 ISDs using the material for 1 Executor. But Palpatine opted for this arrogant strategy and we can only stand by looking at it.
For Scarif, the space front was equipped with a station, a few ISDs and a bunch of Tie fighters. This is a much more mobilized setup relatively. The terrestrial front was also more mobile, because in no way would the Empire call out a 1km long battle tank for a fight on land. The largest vehicles on land the Empire has brought was AT-ATs, and unlike the Executor which was just a giant hunk of durasteel that so happens to have people in it, actually posed damage to the rebel troops. The imperial troops can be broken into smaller groups easily both mentally and physically, making it harder to defend against as a strategy for the rebels.
Also, the "Main-character" front for Scarif isn't nearly as easy as that of Endor because unlike the 3-man fight which was probably determined by personality tendencies majorly, on Scarif, you actually need Andor to climb up dozens of yards of a pillar while hurt in a short period of time in order for the rebels to win. How plausible was that? Con gave zero comments on this issue.
Relying on Lando's piloting abilities alone is more risky than on Scarif, given the limitations of the starfighters and corvettes.
Relying on Chirrut's force sensitivity alone is more risky than Lando alone, given that the active battlefield killed him seconds after he turned the switch on.
Relying on Jyn's stamina alone is more risky than Lando alone, given that she is carrying a giant hard drive that she just "assumed" to be correct(She has no way of verifying that "Stardust" refers to the DS1 plans or not because realistically, there is at most 1 try), climbing at least 30 feet up a pillar not meant for day-to-day human traversing.
Relying on Andor's stamina is equally as risky for the same reasons.
Relying on K-2SO's mechanical abilities to open and close doors and outposts within the scarif stronghold is risky as well, because neither Jyn nor Cassian have been there before, they can only trust.
The tunnel Lando is through was so wide the entire Millenial Falcon can fit through it easily. I would argue that it is actually LESS risky given that several other starfighters escorted the Millenium falcon and exited intact to show how easy it is to traverse the tunnel if you are a top-tier rebel pilot. Also also, Scarif has a bunch of pilots close to this level, the only problem was that they died.
Pro also concedes on the point that the Battle of Endor took longer. The amount of time it takes to accomplish something gives a lot of idea about the difficulty. Each second the battle took was just another moment closer to losing the war.
The quoted material direct above this sentence illustrated why time alone cannot be used as a determining factor for how difficult a fight is. Because how much the Empire has and needs and how little efficiency they have on Endor, versus how compacted and organized and alert imperial resources are on Scarif, we can't just conclude that Endor was more difficult for the rebels just because it was longer.
Conclusions
- Con dropped several points.
- On Endor, the military vehicles are so large they end up hurting the imperial effort.
- On Endor, there is 1 or 2 risky people crucial to the Rebel's success(even if you count Luke, which I don't). On Scarif, there is at least 3.
- The Scarif base was much more alert and compacted than anything on Endor, making it harder.
- Overall, the Battle of Scarif was harder for the rebels to win. Vote PRO!
I rest my case.
Con
#8
Conclusion:
- Proven that The Rebels’ attack wasn’t expected on The Battle of Scarif.
- Proven that The Emperor predicted the Rebels on the Endor Moon.
- Pro agrees that the Battle of Endor was longer than Scarif. This last point means Endor was way more difficult to win.
Vote CON
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Really good debate, I vote Pro and here's why:
1. I buy that Scarif was unexpected by the Empire, but Endor was.
2. I buy that Scarif is a imperial stronghold and has a more mobile/responsive terrestrial force compared to Endor, which was a temporary/new installation that didn't have operational training on the planet.
3. I buy the massive vehicles used on Endor are a liability.
4. I buy that Endor took longer because the Empire was butchering the response.
5. I'm not going to go into all the individual dropped points of Pros case about the dozen or so places the entire mission would fail, but they all flow Pro.
6. I buy that Chirrut was a useful asset, but Endor had a full jedi knight.
7. I buy that the soldiers on Scarif are highly trained and outstrip Andor.
8. I buy that the events of all the main characters on Scarif are riskier than Lando, though relying on Lando poses a risk to the Endor mission. The risk is slightly mitigated, however, by the ease at which you can fly into the DS2 and destroy it.
9. I buy that the events between Vader, Luke, and Palpatine were inevitable, however, Luke's death would not end the Rebellion.
10. I buy the Executor was a flawed ship design.
11. I buy that the entire Endor mission hinged on Han and Leia succeeding in shutting down the shields.
In conclusion, I evaluate the risk of Scarif, and it is extremely high. The list of points that Pro gives is damning because each of the dozen-plus is a game over. All of Con's points showing the ease of the Scarif mission are not contextualized to these individual points. Even if I look at the generalizations, the imperial stronghold and mobilized terrestrial forces incredibly heightened the risk. The only thing I have is it's an initial surprise, but they were found out, and therefore, went through the entire events of a battle. In regard to Endor, I buy that the entire mission hinged on Han and Leia, which highly ups the risk, but compared to a dozen plus places the risk is that high for Sharif, it doesn't compare. On top of that, the Empires butchered response, lack of operational training, ease at destroying the DS2, and a full jedi knight all greatly alleviate the risk of a surprise.
Notes for Pro
1. You extend all your points in the final speech, but even if you group them together, extend it every round.
2. Make sure you answer the Han and Leia warrant as that is the greatest hole in your case, right now.
3. To be 100% honest, I don't understand how the events of Vader, Luke, and Palpatine all fit into the greater case about the Endor mission, so if you could do that work for me better, that may help.
Notes for Con
1. You need to deal with these individual points that Pro brings up. Even a generalized "each of these aren't a kill switch to the mission, simply a larger hurdle writ large" at least lets me cast doubt on the fact that there are a dozen plus places where there is a highly likely chance the mission would fail.
2. You need to do a lot more defense about how hard the battle actually was on Endor, as your letting Pro control that the Empire was bumbling idiots.
3. As someone who's judged 2 or 3 of your debates, you seem like your too busy to do a good job. Your lack of line by line work in the first round and your last speech give off that impression, so if you have too much in your life or your 10+ active debates are too much, don't over commit.
As always, if you have any questions or comments, please feel free to comment, question, or message me.
I can probably do so tomorrow.
a vote would be appreciated.
Bump for some votes, shall we?